Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x03 "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

::: spoiler Logline La’An travels back in time to twenty-first-century Earth to prevent an attack which will alter humanity’s future history—and bring her face to face with her own contentious legacy. :::

Written by David Reed

Directed by Amanda Row

Note: This is a second attempt, as technical difficulties were preventing people from seeing the original discussion post. Apologies to the people who were able to comment in the original.

Mezentine ,

The more I think about this episode the more impressed I get. There's so many small moments where they could have taken the easy, obvious choice and it would have been fine, and instead they were just a little more thoughtful and a little more creative and it shows.

They could have just had Pelia push a secret button to reveal her stash of alien tech, and that probably would have been fine. Instead they show her as this woman who's very smart and obviously immortal but otherwise...just a person living through history, which is so much better. Imagining the 250 years between the present and when she's one of the most famous engineers in the fleet is fun.

They could have had the Romulan agent just be a cold, ruthless assassin from the future who's here to get the job done, and that would have been fine. Instead she's this slightly unhinged woman, trapped out of time, stuck undercover on an alien world for thirty years on a mission that she's not sure exists anymore and I love the way she starts losing it at the end, that she just wants to kill this kid and be done with it.

They could have cast Khan as a hot 20 something available in the Toronto area and had him to a Ricardo Montalbán impression and give us a tense standoff, and I would have been annoyed at that, but it probably would have been fine. Instead they show us an actual child, and remind is that Khan was a horrifying monster, but he was created by a world with monsters of its own, monsters who built a child in a laboratory and raised him in a basement, and suddenly its a piece of implied context made explicit that I didn't even know I wanted.

And of course they could have just had Kirk agree to fix the timeline because its the right thing to do, or because he loves La`an, or because...honestly, because the plot has to happen, this is something that so many stories would just gloss over to keep the story moving. And instead we get one line, "Sam's alive?" and my heart jumped to my throat a little bit and immediately we understand why he's willing to go through with this.

I'm really really impressed with the writers on this episode.

Mezentine ,

Although it does remain very funny that they're doing this much work to make us care about Sam Kirk, a character who's fate is to die off screen to a brain parasite before the episode even starts. Sorry Sam.

IonAddis ,
@IonAddis@lemmy.world avatar

I think it’s more that they’re introducing Kirk sideways, by way of humanizing him through how he cares for Sam.

stuck ,

Wow. You get my first Lemmy upvote on this post! Thank you for pointing out all these details.

IonAddis ,
@IonAddis@lemmy.world avatar

They could have just had Pelia push a secret button to reveal her stash of alien tech, and that probably would have been fine. Instead they show her as this woman who’s very smart and obviously immortal but otherwise…just a person living through history, which is so much better. Imagining the 250 years between the present and when she’s one of the most famous engineers in the fleet is fun.

It’s not just fun–but it speaks to a different demographic than most shows speak to.

It’s telling older women that it’s not too late to change and grow and learn. Here she is, obviously having already lived a long life–but then we learn she hasn’t ALWAYS been an engineer from the start. She did not begin as someone obviously fascinated by science.

She realized later in life. And then she was able to SUCCESSFULLY pursue her career and become an expert. Just because she wasn’t a child prodigy didn’t mean she couldn’t learn and grow. There’s SO many stories focusing on people who have things 100% right immediately out of the gate. Top grades in school, top performance at work, accolades, reccomendations from the time they were teens.

But this story is of an ordinary eccentric retail worker…who goes back to hit the books and succeeds with her change.

This lesson will go over 75% people’s heads…but in true Star Trek fashion, even if it elludes many, it’ll hit home with the demographic it’s meant to talk to. Older women who feel like they’re too old to change. That they shouldn’t even try. It’s talking to THEM like so many other characters in Star Trek talk to other overlooked people.

And that makes this detail–one out of many in this excellent episode–top Star Trek.

Mezentine ,

Okay there was a lot that worked for me in that episode. The amazing decision to have Pelia knowing nothing about engineering to being a veteran warp core engineer in 200 years. Going for child Khan and really leaning into the fucked up reality that these children were science experiments kept locked in basements for the first time in the franchise? The reminder that Toronto is actually pretty damn photogenic when it's not shot on a CW budget.

And you know what? Paul Wesley doesn't have Kirks voice, and the script still doesn't quite sound right, but he's got the Kirk delivery really nailed. He doesn't sound like Shatner, but he sounds like Kirk

Mezentine ,

Also it feels kind of significant that they finally dropped the word socialist on screen to describe the Federation? They've always danced around it before, but I'm glad they finally made it explicit, even in an off hand way. It helps make the Federation feel less "magical" and more like something that people who existed in history, connected to both the past and the future, had to actually build

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Having Pelia say it, with the lens of historical perspective, is perfect.

The Federation may not use the word or describe its society that way, but someone who’d lived in the United States in the 20th and 21st century might.

Mezentine ,

I really really like Pelia as a character and a concept. I think its a very smart approach to immortality to have her be someone both used to and unresistant to change. The world happens. Time moves on. Over centuries kingdoms turn into empires turn into wastelands turn into spacefaring cooperatives and she's not jaded nor stagnant, she just continues to grow and adapt and change as things change around her.

lemillionsocks ,
@lemillionsocks@beehaw.org avatar

I do love also how she’s not some wisened genius race. She’s just old. Like maybe her people were space faring at some point in time, but given how long they live getting fast high end tech isnt necessary so they probably werent as advanced as most species we encounter in star trek.

But also even if they were it’s been a long time since they used their tech and even if they remember it it’s not like she would know how to build it. Like I know how to drive a car, and can do some basic mechanic work, and I know the broad strokes of how an internal combustion engine works. If someone asked me to build them a car they’d be out of luck.

buckykat ,

Kirk gets a mysterious call in the middle of the night from a woman he’s never met asking weird questions and his response is to ask her out

10/10 Kirk behavior

cybervseas ,

Wait what’s this? Star Trek writers can still create a time travel story that wraps up in an episode (or two) instead of lasting a whole 10 episodes of nothing?!

And they can weave in minor plot points from previous episodes to give it continuity without feeling forced?

How can this be?

CmdrShepard ,

If you’re referring to Discovery, I think the whole time jump saved the show. I really struggled through the first couple seasons but now I look forward to new episodes. It’s still not peak Trek, but I’ve been waiting for something that doesn’t center around Kirk or the Kirk era (similar to Star Wars and the Skywalkers) but instead jumps further ahead than previous eras for decades now.

Katherine1 ,

I believe that was referencing Picard Season 2, which this episode has a strong resemblance to.

BROMETHIUS ,

Am I confused or is this a Star Trek “sub lemmy” that is super active? Is this an rss feed from Reddit or something?

If this is already this active, then fuck yeah lol

IonAddis ,
@IonAddis@lemmy.world avatar

Star Trek fandom is OLD. And a lot of the old fans go back to the BBS and email list days. They’ve/we’ve weathered plenty of technology changes.

This is in fact the one sub I am NOT surprised is so active. It’s one part Old Fandom, and one part the new shows coming out being pretty good, making the fandom alive and kicking instead of moribund and dead.

MichelleBirkby ,
@MichelleBirkby@geekdom.social avatar

@IonAddis @BROMETHIUS oh, I remember fandom when it was hand printed zines through the post - fandom survives, fandom finds a way

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Mimeoed zines are in my past I confess.

I can’t say they were always as civil as they might be. Even in the late 80s with laserprint copies in vogue, there were folks who thought shouting everything in AllCaps was the way to get their message across.

@BROMETHIUS you may wish to check the pinned message at the top of this community.

This instance was created by the senior mods of r/startrek and r/DaystromInstitute. The original mod of r/startrek is modding here. They’re hoping to attract some of the other Star Trek subreddits to join. The invitations have been made. So far, they’ve decided to keep the number of communities to three in order to let the conversations get going.

Tired8281 ,

Did she leave that gun with that little boy?

ShakaWhenRedditFell ,
@ShakaWhenRedditFell@startrek.website avatar

Lucky for us this boy is not going to be a genocidal maniac.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

She left the gun that had shot Kirk in plain sight to be found be the security team she believed were on their way.

And in fact we heard the footfalls of the team running towards the room just as La’an hit the button and vanished. She didn’t even have time to get herself out of young Khan’s sight.

crazycanadianloon ,

My initial reaction is that that story was told very well and Christina Chong was phenomenal at acting it out too. But I think I need more time to actually digest the ramifications of what just happened to her too... yikes.

IonAddis ,
@IonAddis@lemmy.world avatar

I ended up liking this a lot. For one, I’m glad Pelia really is a part of the cast now because I LOVED her introduction and was fearful she’d be a one-and-done character.

But secondly, in the past all I could see with La’an was (as someone else said) “a budget Camina Drummer”. And I love Drummer, but seeing almost!Drummer every time La’an was on screen was so fricking weird.

I think this episode gave La’an some of the development she needed so I wasn’t seeing almost!Drummer all the time.

(And for those who don’t know Drummer is…go watch The Expanse. It’s as if the new (is it still considered new?) Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek had a baby. One part grittier sci-fi universe, one part wonderful character/crew exploration.)

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I agree. At one point, I wondered if the EPs had wanted Cara Gee for the show.

She’s her own person now. Strong and closed like Drummer but from a very different context.

Many of us who are fans of both Trek and The Expanse have wished Trek had some of the complex strong women along the lines of the Expanse. I can’t criticize the EPs for wanting to bring that into the franchise. Now all I want is a Trek version of Avrasala.

zalack ,
@zalack@kbin.social avatar

I legit thought it was Cara Gee for the first few scenes she was in.

Hypersapien ,

At the very least the Time Agents could send La-An a therapist or something.

arkclr ,

Did anyone else catch what looked like an unspoken, knowing look from Pelia when La'an appeared on the bridge after returning? Does Pelia somehow remember their prior encounter on Earth? Is it explicit, or more like the way Guinan would have an intuition, or a subliminal feeling? Or did I imagine that?

linux2647 ,

I feel like it was a “aha I remember when you wore that outfit.” I was kind of hoping they would have a conversation at the end. Instead we got the DTI 😄

Jon-H558 ,

Yeah I was really expecting pelia to come in and lift the watch back up at the end and comfort laan

Jon-H558 ,

Actually thinking about it that might be why the line "I'm awful with faces" was there ..not just to explain away why 21stC Pelia didn't recognise why la'an knew her but she didn't know laan, but also why 23rdC pelia doesn't remember a meeting 200 years prior

CeruleanRuin ,
@CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one avatar

I imagine she will take a few episodes to figure it out. This definitely seems like a thread that hasn’t spooled all the way out yet.

burningquestion ,

I saw that as well! I’m assuming Pelia remembers, there’s no reason why she wouldn’t other than that it was so long ago. But then again, La’an walking onto the bridge in the exact same outfit from before might have jogged her memory.

FormerGameDev ,

Pelia remembers it, that meeting was before the timelines diverged, so it happened in the current timeline.

Pyr_Pressure ,

It’s unfortunate that the writers didn’t plan this beforehand, so we could have had some foreshadowing a few episodes beforehand with a first meeting between the two where pelia acts a little weird (because she remembers her from 200 years ago).

Continuumguy ,

Random thoughts as I watch (cross-posted from the old place):

  • Wow, first that outburst, and then Spock jams too much. Truly in his wild child phase.
  • BTW, was that a Denobulan?
  • Pelia totally worried that this whole utopia thing just a passing trend. And hilariously having to prove (?) she isn't a thief.
  • They really are taking advantage of Babs O's Jiu-Jitsu training this year, aren't they?
  • Captain James T. Kirk, the greatest menace of Temporal Investigations!
  • Oh boy, alternate timeline where the Federation doesn't exist time!
  • "Maple leaves, politeness, poutine."
  • Clever distraction.
  • I wonder if 3D chess is a thing in the United Earth Fleet timeline, because Kirk is good at the 2D in it.
  • Okay, I guess they do have 3D Chess.
  • I generally try not to be like this... but goddamn I'd like to thank them for having Christina Chong in various states of tight clothing and undress.
  • Good thing the time travel guy went to the ship Sam Kirk was on.
  • Oh man, I was looking forward to driving across Lake Ontario to Toronto (presumably from Rochester or Buffalo or something, right?), which totally would be a logical economic and engineering choice, I'm sure!
  • Mildly annoyed that Kirk doesn't drive to Beastie Boys.
  • James Discreet Kirk
  • Soongs gonna break in even to the timelines and series they aren't in.
  • Jim Discretion Kirk
  • OH FUCK ROMULANS
  • We have gone (zero) days without Romulans trying to screw up the timeline.
  • Probably the first time that DuckDuckGo has been mentioned in Star Trek.
  • Yeah, Pythagoras is the worst, Pelia.
  • Oh, so this is a predestination paradox where they make her become an engineer and as a result she is there to inspire La'An to go look for her later.
  • KHAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN! KHAAAAANNNNNNNNN! (Or at least the institute for him)
  • To be fair, this is like the third face that Captain Kirk has had.
  • We have gone (ZERO) days without a time-travelling Romulan that had to ditch the ears.
  • We have gone (ZERO) days without (a) Captain Kirk dying. We're three-for-three on Kirk actor deaths, folks!
  • KHAAAAAAAAAANNNN! KHAAAAAAANNNN! KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!
  • THEY CAME UP WITH AN EXPLANATION WHY THE EUGENICS WARS DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE 90'S! THE MAD LADS DID IT!
  • Face to face with great-great-great-great grandpa Baby Genetics-Hitler.
  • Oh, great, temporal investigations. No wonder they hate Kirk so much, even his alternate versions screw stuff around.
  • Good ep. Way better than it sounded when I first heard about it.
Justas ,
@Justas@sh.itjust.works avatar

I wish the Romulan agent succeeded but that led to a stronger Federation instead just to spite those meddling aliens.

shirro ,

That was a love letter to trek time travel stories and a nice character piece for Christina who feels less and less like a budget Drummer ripoff. Like any episodal television SNW is a bit hit and miss but better the occasional highs than a season long arc that drags and disappointments.

briongloid ,
@briongloid@aussie.zone avatar

Yes, first season it was jarring, this season she feels more like an original character.

bunkyprewster ,

I love that Kirk had to die saving his own worst enemy so that the Federation could exist.

FormerGameDev ,

and subverting the “hero goes back in time to kill a mass murderer” trope, with “hero goes back in time to save a mass murderer”

NuPNuA ,

I actually thought the plot of Picard series 2 was going to be something like this, Picard has to ensure WW3 happens, dooming millions to save his future. Instead we got, well what we got.

TheGayTramp ,
@TheGayTramp@lemmy.ca avatar

Seems to me that they are merging the eugenics wars and wwiii together in canon. Maybe the eugenics wars are the catalyst for wwiii or something like that?

NuPNuA ,

Makes sense to be fair. The Augments take advantage of the War to seize a portion of the planet in all the confusion.

astroturds ,

Kirk was superb, I don't think I could have accepted the car scene if it was anyone else. It's Kirk, of course he's going to drive like a nutter. I was genuinely shocked when he got shot. I thought there couldn't possibly be a way for him to make it but they still got me.

La'an has grown on me so much, she was the one I was most dubious about in the early episodes of season one. I felt really sorry for her at the end, losing Kirk and being unable to talk to anyone about what she's experienced. She's gone through some pretty serious trauma already due to her genes and name and now she's had to go through this pure insanity. I wonder what the significance of the watch is.

ObsidianBlk ,
@ObsidianBlk@lemmy.world avatar

This does bring up an interesting observation… The Temporal Agents apparently have no qualms about coming to not only take back their gadgets and gizmos after someone from the past uses them, but seems to just drop in on the past and cryptically hand out missions to those same ancestors out of literal nowhere! This time travel stuff can be so mentally damaging that even those agents trained to directly work with it (Captain Brackston, for example) can mentally break. Whatever stress La’an was shouldering at the start of the episode has now surely compounded.

You would think that Starfleet of the future would have put together some form of “Temporal Psychology” department, or something. People who’s jobs are to go back to ancestors emotionally effected by time travel, and help them deal with any trauma. Telling La’an to, basically, just “shut up and suck it up” is a horrible way to deal with someone who, essentially, just saved your existence. I get she can’t talk to any of her contemporaries, but surely someone from the past could pop-in and act as a counselor of some sort.

IDK… I felt the temporal agent’s cold response to what La’an had to deal with was rather un-starfleet.

cybervseas ,

Yes I was thinking the same thing, like “Lady you’re acknowledging how difficult this is to bear, could you offer like 6 free therapy sessions at least?”

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Maybe they know that she has Pelia there to comfort her?

La’an couldn’t tell Pelia the details around Khan or the Romulan incursions, but if Pelia recognizes her and asks after the handsome young companion she has with her in the 21st century, she could at least offer comfort for his nonexistence in this presence. I doubt Pelia could see La’an with this universe’s Kirk and not put her memories together.

cybervseas ,

She was discount Camina Drummer for me at first. Now I see her as her own character with a lot of potential.

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