JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

M’Benga: I can live with it

baruch ,
@baruch@babka.social avatar

"... because I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log."

Prouvaire ,

This episode was like someone said "Let's do our version of The Undiscovered Country" and then gave it to a bunch of DS9 writers to execute. It starts with very Roddenberrian premise - the promise of a former enemy becoming an ally. But then it brings in the gritty realism of what war is really like, ala "The Siege of AR-558", and the moral cost that war extracts - that maybe the monster you see is not just in the face of the enemy, but the face you see in the mirror, ala "Duet", "In the Pale Moonlight" and the other morally grey episodes that often marked the best of DS9's run.

Continuumguy ,

2x07: Wacky crossover with the comedy cartoon!

2x08: WAR IS HELL, NOBODY IS INNOCENT, MORALITY IS GREY, FORGIVENESS IS QUESTIONABLE, AND THE FRIENDLY DOCTOR MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE DELIBERATELY KILLED A GUY IN COLD BLOOD

2x09: Musical!

Find you a show that can do both.

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

🎵 Through early morning fog I see

Visions of the things to be

The pains that are withheld for me

I realize and I can seeeeeee… 🎵

Hogger85b , (edited )

Buffy
Mom
Once more with feeling

Stargate
Wormhole Xtreme
The tomb

But yeah had to go quite far back

Edit also how could I forget what seems an inspiration of this episode MAS*H

Continuumguy ,

Edit also how could I forget what seems an inspiration of this episode MAS*H

Yes, definitely had a MASH vibe.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@Continuumguy @startrek But in its serious mode, without the wacky anti-authoritarian hijinks.

rob_t_firefly ,
@rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world avatar

The laugh-track-less bits in late-stage MASH.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

More MASH the movie than the show, at least not the early seasons.

VindictiveJudge ,

Or Farscape, which sometimes did both in the same episode. Teen Titans could pull it off in a kid-friendly format, too, along with ATLA.

Qapla ,

So… I have loved this entire season but I am not sure about this one.

I’m a vet with PTSD, and I’ll preface my upcoming comments by simply stating that maybe it hit close to home and made me uncomfortable. Maybe dealing with those feelings clouded my perception of the episode. However, the TNG and DS9 episodes dealing with PTSD are some of my favorite and are actually therapeutic for me, so maybe that’s not the case.

Ultimately, the message was dour and I resent it a little since it implies that there isn’t any healing that can occur from this type of trauma, which I believe is completely false. Sure, there might not be any healing for M’Benga as a character, but the thematic message of the episode implied some stuff I’m not really a fan of.

Furthermore, how is Pike supposed to operate as a Captain after both M’Benga and Chapel have committed conspiracy to cover up a murder? I think I will just have to head-canon this episode way. It’ll join “Sons of Mogh” as an episode I just pretend never happened.

I’m fine with a bit of moral ambiguity in Star Trek. But I think this episode crossed a line. Hopefully we will see fallout from this come up later in the show.

I really hate typing this but M’Benga went from possibly my favorite character on the show to someone I sort of resent. And I feel like Chapel is right there alongside him. And it made Pike look ineffectual as a leader- he really should have reprimanded Ortegas.

Plus, back to it again, lying about the blade is conspiracy and it really shattered my perception of those two characters.

Anyways, this is just me rambling. I’ll say something positive about the episode: I enjoyed seeing Spock struggle with seeing Chapel in distress and finally figuring out he needed to step away.

autojourno ,

On M’Benga, I can’t quarrel with a thing you say and I haven’t been through what you’ve been through. But I’d encourage you to consider that he’s not a finished product. If this show gets to continue as far as it can, we know he’s in for a lot more change. Maybe he has to heal from here to end up somehow working under McCoy. The state he’s in when he hides this from Pike isn’t the end for him. Maybe this is part of trauma we get to watch him process from here?

eva_sieve ,

I would have liked M’benga’s ending monologue to be less final. Instead of “things break, we fix them, but they’ll break again,” even just leaving it as a question-- “can we ever truly fix these things?” would feel like it leaves more room for hope and redemption in the future.

const_void ,
@const_void@lemmy.world avatar

Oooh—good pt!

Could be foreshadowing!!! I am not tracking the significance of the busted sick bay but I’m sure there is something there!

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

I am not a vet, and even I had to turn it off and come back to watch it later when I was prepared. That was super triggering.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I understand your reaction.

For me, this is in many ways a less dark and cynical take than DS9 In the Pale Moonlight and certainly the Section 31 references.

What was critical here was the difference between the journey of individual traumatized officers who had been forced repeatedly to take actions in wartime that compromised their values, and brought out capabilities they never sought to own, vs Starfleet leadership taking cynical action. It’s also a direct outcome of Starfleet’s cynical actions in having M’Benga develop the serum and then use it.

Starfleet’s postwar directive, and Pike’s insistence on pressing it with his senior officers, created the immediate crisis.

However, we need to take account of the fact that it was the ambassador’s own repeated insistence on confronting, engaging and attempting to recruit M’Benga to assist in his mission that led to the break.

M’Benga seemed to be processing his trauma and managing it as well as he could. He wasn’t at the point of exposing the ambassador’s deceit although he appeared to have been contemplating it.

It was the ambassador’s decision to seek M’Benga out again, in his own safe space, his private office, and own refusal to take M’Benga’s rejection that seemed to take the contemplation to action.

The cover up by Chapel and M’Benga is serious, and in the case of M’Benga this is the second case of his hiding something of significance from his captain. He’s an understandable but grey character, and we will have to see where the show takes him.

In Chapel’s case, we have been shown that her bright effervescence hides much darker experiences. It’s now easier to imagine how she will evolves to the very restrained version of herself in TOS.

I feel this is a very authentic portrayal of the chronic legacy unaddressed of trauma in individuals, how a military service and society will need to move on after a society-wide war when its individuals are not yet ready to do so, and how disasterous the potential outcomes when the divide been societal and individual needs in healing are ignored.

It’s not the 24th century Starfleet we’re seeing where there has been a long period of peace and officers can be treated effectively for trauma before returning to duty and it locks in with chronic effects.

I agree that it does not show Pike’s leadership in a positive light, but I find it realistic. What it does show is the gulf between war veterans and those senior officers who, while veterans of other kinds of conflicts, were not involved.

Starfleet needs senior officers, without direct personal history, like Pike to lead the peace and move forward, just as the western allies needed to find a way with some German leaders and scientists after WW2. But not every individual at the front can withstand the stress of that direct engagement with a former enemy.

Starfleet’s order to force veterans into direct contact with a former enemy was psychologically unhealthy and unrealistic, but a value-focused officer like Pike would not have the insight to see that.

This gulf was underscored at a personal level by Chapel’s conversation with Spock, when she could not share her experience with him and he could not ease her pain. The scene between them was an essential confirmation.

What I found interesting is that Number One had the best read on the situation. She saw the pressure the ambassador was putting directly on the veterans in the crew.

As the executive officer, it’s her job to manage personnel, to assess readiness, to deliver a functioning ship for the captain’s command. She accurately saw the problem and recommended action to mitigate the situation by reducing the time to deliver the ambassador to Starbase 24.

What she was not able to do however was to convince Pike to stand down a bit on Starfleet’s toxic order to require veterans of the war to show acceptance of the ambassador. Nor did we see her attempt to try to convince Pike. He was leading from his values and unable to really take measure of its impact on the individuals.

I find it interesting that this show is giving us episodes that show the negatives of Pike’s command style as well as the strengths. While we’ve seen the negatives in Kirk’s and Picard’s temperament’s and command styles acknowledged in the movies and in Picard, this seems to be the first time we’ve had it done with a hero captain in an ongoing television series when he’s in active command of the ship.

isaac ,
@isaac@lakora.us avatar

@StillPaisleyCat Although I wish some of Pike's dialogue had been fleshed out a bit to make him feel like less of a generic foil for M'Benga (especially in their scene near the end), I do really like that they had the lead character of the show be the one who doesn't get it, and in a way that's in keeping with his characterization (it ties in particularly well with last season's alternate-timeline Romulan episode, I think).

Azfaa ,

So I haven’t been to war, or suffered through it or anything and I can’t say I don’t understand some of the feelings but thank you so much for sharing this. Partially because it makes me feel more hopeful that it isn’t so black and impossible, that it is possible to heal and move on to a degree. I still agree with most of what you said, I felt sad, if not outright disappointed because to me M’benga’s actions aren’t justifiable. It would have been one thing to have Rahl go through Nuremberg style trials or something but the Federation did decide to grant him asylum. I guess I personally dream of a more optimistic world where it might be possible to forgive, but yeah… idk.

Mezentine ,

I’m not a vet and I don’t have PTSD but my girlfriend and I had some pretty similar issues to you with this episode. I think, thankfully, the episode doesn’t seem to expect us to think that M’benga was “right” at the end, or to be happy about what happened, and the final scene between him and Pike is critically important because I don’t think Pike is supposed to look foolish in that scene. Absent that, this episode would feel really gross to me.

As it is, really the only way I can work with this is knowing that the actual arc here is the enormous one that concludes with Star Trek VI, a movie that I feel only gets more radical with every year that passes and every rewatch I give it. Kirk’s realization that he has to let go of all the pain and anger in that movie and allow the world to move on and healing to begin is, when you get down to it, maybe the most optimistic and important message the franchise has ever really tried to express, and if this episode exists as a “middle chapter” between the war itself and that eventual endpoint…well…I can work with it as that middle chapter. But I still feel pretty crummy about it.

const_void ,
@const_void@lemmy.world avatar

I agree with you. However I see the Klingon as the ray of hope in this story.

Even if the Klingon’s diplomat status was built on a lie, unless something else reveals new information, the Klingon was dealing with his role in his past war crimes in a positive fashion.

This episode has highlighted how shady Benga has been for quite a well, from his daughter on in. Nurse Chapel walks the gray line as well. I do like him as a character and the idea of a murderous “Frank Castle, CMO” is hmmm some good stuff.

I liked the look Spock shot Chapel when she said “you feel like” and he was like … umm … surely you jest…and let it go. Very cool! And great Vulcan logic in this ep.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

A fantastic episode.

Certainly, another YMMV of episode as the season takes on radically different tones and tropes episode by episode.

In my view, it’s one of the few episodes in the franchise that tackles trauma authentically and successfully. I would put it the ‘best of lists’.

It’s astonishing how many standout episodes we’ve had already this season.

stuck ,

Can we just have a quick shout out to Jess Bush who is such a talented actress. Nurse Chapel experiencing RAGE was so convincing!

rob_t_firefly ,
@rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world avatar

She is really good. I loved TOS, I loved other things Majel did, but I never thought before this show I’d actually be taking the Nurse Chapel character seriously.

LexPendragon ,
@LexPendragon@QuarteredCircle.net avatar

@rob_t_firefly @stuck Strange New Worlds has two excellent stand-ins for Majel, and I am always glad to see my daughter's namesake celebrated by giving her roles such respect.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@stuck Terrific performance, and a great re-imagining of a character that was woefully underserved in TOS.

IonAddis ,
@IonAddis@lemmy.world avatar

I want to call out to everyone the BRILLIANT usage of the medical transporter incoming warning during the war scenes of the episode.

I don’t have PTSD, but I do have cPTSD which is close enough, and the way the sound designers utilized that medical transporter incoming warning seemed VERY clearly an attempt to demonstrate to viewers how PTSD triggers are formed.

Like–so many shows focus on explosions and stuff as a PTSD trigger. Because usually you talk about the soldiers as the vets, not the support personnel.

But with the MEDICS–that sound, going off again and again and again, when they were already overwhelmed and didn’t have the staff or equipment to deal with the incoming wounded…

It’s so clear to me that that sound alone, telling them they’re about to get more dumped on their head when they can’t even deal with the ones they already have, is meant to be fixated in the viewer’s memory to sort of demonstrate how it’d get lodged as a trigger in the medic’s memories.

It was just a fantastic use of sound design to help tell the story. They did it with such a deft hand that it didn’t come off as poor sound design (as it could have), but was still CONSTANTLY THERE, putting everyone on edge.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we hear that sound in a later episode and either Chapel or M’Benga (or both) completely hit the roof.

Edit: Unrelated to the sound, I also like how they had M’Benga and Chapel fix up the young man, even resorting to “medieval” medicine by manually pumping his heart–only for him to go out and then COME BACK dead.

It just gives a feeling of hopelessness. They spent so much time fixing him up–and he died anyhow after he was sent back into the meat grinder.

poundsignbuttstuff ,

All of what you described gave me strong MASH vibes and me the think the writers had to have loved that show.

When the transporters were being announced, I thought of the choppers coming in and how they all mobilized to deal with it including getting people out of the way so new patients could arrive.

Not to mention the great but heart breaking episodes where they did have to choose one life over another and that was their job in wartime. So incredibly heartbreaking in a comedy show, heartbreaking in a scifi show, yet so poignant.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@poundsignbuttstuff @startrek The war scenes definitely reminded me of the serious side of MAS*H.

JohnOnABuffalo ,

I just have to say…

Holy fucking shit.

Corgana ,
@Corgana@startrek.website avatar

I watched this immediately after watching a heavier episode of MAS*H and well, damn.

Glimpythegoblin ,

This made me want a mash type start trek series about a medical base during the war.

Hogger85b ,

It made me think of mash too, luckily hadn't just come off watching one but did have some of the feeling of darker episdoes

Iam ,

Loved it. For me, M’Benga is the heart and soul of this show. I think he’s great.

frankPodmore ,
@frankPodmore@slrpnk.net avatar

I think that might’ve been the best SNW episode so far. Great guest role, all-round incredible performances from the regulars. Babs absolutely smashed it, obviously. Not going to go all out and say it’s one of the top Trek episodes full stop till I’ve had time to think, but right now I can’t think of many better ones!

VindictiveJudge ,

This is SNW’s Duet. If it marks a similar increase in quality, then SNW is going to be amazing.

triktrek ,

Yeah, I couldn’t stop thinking about DS9’s Duet with this episode. Lots of comparisons, though I think there was a lot more grey-ish morality in the SNW world. War is complicated and it sucks for everyone involved.

RootBeerGuy ,
@RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I liked it, but two things went a bit too far.

The bio-bed acting up was just too silly of an issue to bring up. I mean this is starfleets flagship with the best of the best on board and M’Benga keeps working on this bio-bed, never fully fixing it? Sounds weird.

Second, they are making this whole keeping a person buffered in a transporter thing way too useful. Like the only downside seems to be that if you get a malfunction you may need to “delete” the person. I remember some episode of another series, was it Rikers clone in TNG? Where they were worried about integrity of the pattern, since it was stored so long. Did not seem to be a problem for his daughter though. Don’t like how this is so trivialized, it would solve so many problems if this could be done “professionally”.

a_random_fox ,
@a_random_fox@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

There was the episode with Scotty in TNG (Relics) where there was indeed the problem of the pattern of the person who was in the buffer with him degrading, but that was over decades (2294-2369), while M’Bengas daughter was in the pattern buffer significantly less time. She was also rematerialised from time to time and it was noted that not doing so risked the integrity of the pattern, which contributed to the issue seen in the TNG episode.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@RootBeerGuy @startrek The transporter is essentially magic. If you think too long about it, you’ll wonder why, for example, everyone doesn’t “store their pattern”, and thus become effectively immortal. Or why a pattern can’t be materialized multiple times, to generate an army of clones.

I love Trek, but it’s much more space opera than hard sci-fi, and often the “sciencey” bits are purely for narrative convenience (see also “holodeck”).

darth_helmet ,

Yep, particularly with the Riker clone, it seems like the safest way to do away missions would be to send down an instance of the crew rather than the actual crew. But then what would they do with all those extra red shirts?

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

David Brin’s book ‘Kiln People’ explores this idea.

The problem is, as we saw with Tom Riker, the duplicates have their own existence and experiences. Should they just be destroyed like Tuvix in order to restore the originals?

darth_helmet ,

Transporters essentially destroy and recreate people anyway, you have to imagine it is already something that most folks in Starfleet have made peace with, somehow.

Tom Riker is proof that we’re just bags of meat, and consciousness is an emergent phenomenon. The only difference is that instances copies have a divergence point in their experiences. The Bobiverse books explore similar ideas.

But it is hard to imagine those instances wouldn’t want to avoid getting merc’d Tuvix-style. The handwavium way you’d probably try to approach it would be some sort of memory reintegration. Not implausible in Star Trek

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Re: the transporters.

Patterns in the buffer usually degrade over time - The TNG Technical Manual says patterns can last about seven minutes before degradation begins. Obviously, Scotty was able to extend this dramatically, though with only a 50% success rate.

They did touch on this in SNW season one, when M’Benga said he had to rematerialize his daughter periodically. However, the timeframe, while not specified, seemed a helluva lot longer than seven minutes.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

The Tech Manual notwithstanding, on screen we’ve definitely seen longer than seven minutes, notably VOY: “Counterpoint” and DIS: “Stormy Weather”. I take it like I do the original Tech Manual’s statement that you can’t fire phasers at warp.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

You’re certainly right that there’s some wiggle room, though “Counterpoint” has the advantage of having shown the pattern degradation occurring.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I love the TNG Technical Manual but anything onscreen has to trump it.

I’m much more fussed about rapid organ fabricators and dermal regenerators being a thing this early.

I think we’re going to have to buy into 23rd century technology being ahead of were we expect from TOS - but not necessarily ahead of some of the wild claims (and therapies) Bones had access to in the movies.

goGetF1 ,

For all we know, 24th century transporters have an advantage over the 23rd century design but at the expense of superior pattern storage.

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

Or they don’t, but 23rd century medicine isn’t sophisticated enough to detect/understand the damage.

Hogger85b , (edited )

I thought it was played like pattern buffer storage is an m'benga special skill he is better at than his peers

darth_helmet ,

He’s a cleaner, a doctor, and also the best transporter tech in the business, better than folks operating teleporters a hundred years later.

M’Benga Sue

ari ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    RootBeerGuy , (edited )
    @RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    You raise some good points but your condescending intro was seriously unnecessary and uncalled for.

    Sure it could be symbolic. It could also be just a bio-bed. If its used as a metaphor it is a terrible one in my opinion, seeing as this is an advanced future with massive technological advancement. Why out of all people on this ship is it M’Benga doing this, never succeeding, but at no time an actual engineer, you know, like someone with 1000+ years experience, is asked to fix it? I get it that its part of his character that he is handy, but still this is medical equipment, its essential, it needs to work 100%. How would this not be escalated to relevant personel? This is not the war times depicted in the flashbacks, they have resource to do this. Also quite some time has passed since the Gorn attack.

    I rather agree with one of the other posters who said its a setup for something to come.

    So, thanks for your comment but seriously work on your attitude if you consider posting more than just this one comment.

    Hogger85b ,

    Excellent post, absolutely right about symobolism

    ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    Personal attacks are out of line.

    ari ,

    Being 100% honest with you I never intended to attack anyone personally and would greatly appreciate help in highlighting where I’ve done that. I’d normally reread my comment to try to figure out where any misunderstanding could have occurred in situations like this, but the comment’s been removed. I put considerable effort into that comment and don’t want this to happen again in the future.

    eva_sieve ,

    Our literal introduction to Brad Boimler is him trying to repair a broken replicator! Things break and they don’t magically get replaced despite (because of?) Starfleet.

    Kinda agree on the media literacy thing. Subtext and symbolism exist! I don’t even think this episode’s was particularly subtle. Sometimes I wonder what percentage of the fandom believe that Janeway genuinely would get her crew killed just to get some coffee.

    Odo ,

    About the bed: There seems to be an ongoing sub-plot about random systems on the ship glitching out. I’ve seen speculation they’re quietly setting up some kind of AI takeover issue later on. Note the odd shot the episode ends on, with the bed’s info screen flickering again.

    RootBeerGuy ,
    @RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Sounds feasible but reminds me of the DISCO control plot. I hope that is not returning.

    Hogger85b ,

    My take is the same as the other poster the biobed was metaphor for the doctors state of mind.....but happy to be wrong if it is system glitches and have seen suggestions it links to romulan time sabatours

    triktrek ,

    They should take the idea of “storing people in buffers” all the way to extreme and explore it like Black Mirror does. What does this mean if everyone had the opportunity to store people in buffers? Can everyone sign up for this service and instantly beam you into a buffer whenever you have an incurable diseases at the time? Is there a service to auto-beam you into the buffer if the ship is about to crash-land? Can richer people pay to have poorer people’s buffer be deleted when you run out of buffer space? What happens if there is a glitch and people who are in the buffer experience 20 years in real-time?

    I think there’s so much potential for more exploration here. It would be cool to have Charlie Booker on a Star Trek episode, as he kinda did a fun/excellent/dark Star Trek Black Mirror episode too.

    yaaaaayPancakes ,

    Not much to say beyond this episode was amazing. I love how this crew can do it all - lighthearted comedy, to dark, emotional drama. The scars that Ortegas, Chapel, and M’Benga wore in this episode felt real. When Chapel hesitated at knocking the one guy out of the pattern buffer, and M’Benga just cooly smacked the button, it was a clear reminder that war is hell and it breaks people.

    ThrowawayInTheYear23 ,

    Damn that was a heavy episode, i think i’m ready for the musical now. Wish we could have seen more of the Kelcie Mae.

    angstrom ,

    A bit of whiplash from the switch in tone from the last episode but this was a masterpiece. Strange New Worlds seems to be successfully synthesizing all the Trek shows that have gone before it to create something that is classic Trek, but also something new.

    I wonder if the first episode of the season would have worked better if this had been before it in the running order?

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