Nobsi ,
@Nobsi@feddit.de avatar

The only reason i work 80 hours a week is so that my employees and my future children don’t have to have the same luck as me.
If i had a regular life i would not ever work 40 hours.

I see how little my dad gets as a pension and how much my grandpa got. I will not receive anything.

Kyrgizion ,

My stepfather worked his entire life like a goddamn donkey. Even when he was supposed to be on pension his old boss still called him and he actually went and worked for him for free. Today, he’s practically crippled from all the physical strain he put his body though. His ex-boss, meanwhile, is rich as fuck and doesn’t give a fuck, while my stepfather has the absolute minimum pension and no healthcare.

My grandparents, on the other hand, had a very different story. My grandfather worked for the same employer for 50+ years, never missed a day, and had a decent wage AND a pension which he could access at 55 years of age. They were the last generation to receive their part of the social contract, but the generation of my parents and myself are completely missing out.

Small wonder that the young’uns have eyes in their heads and the werewithal to say “No way, not for me!”.

Da_Boom ,
@Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

You shouldn’t live to work, that’s a terrible, shitty, boring, sole sucking way to survive, sure some people enjoy that way, but those guys are the minority, or theyve managed to make their hobby a job so they’re not actually working a day in their life, just getting paid to enjoy their hobby

You work to live. You do just enough work so you can go and enjoy yourself. I generally try not to work too much overtime, and I refuse to be on call unless I get desperate for a cash injection.

Working to live is the one reason I haven’t moved out of home - I pay A$450 a fortnight in board, and that’s far less than most rental properties, (who usually require that but weekly but for a residence that is far worse than where I currently live) and the only room and clothes I have to keep clean are my own.

I got my hobbies and I indulge in them regularly - I game or read my book on the bus to and from work (recently managed to obtain a steam deck for on the go gaming) I livestream when I want to, even if no one’s watching. I go visit my friends on weekends - usually an hour out of my way down the back roads, because I like driving the winding roads and it’s a bonus that it just happens to unironically be the fastest route to their place.

My job isn’t too stressful, and honestly I’m not wanting for much more than I already have. And because I live at home, Im not in debt (apart from my government university debt, but added taxes slowly pay that off, and there’s no deadline to pay it off in full) and am actually saving for a house deposit in the future.

I’m happy, I mean it won’t last, I’ll eventually have to move out - my parents won’t want me living with them forever. Wether I can save enough to get a deposit on a mortgage or have to rent remains to be seen. Hopefully the housing market collapses like it needs to.

GrayBackgroundMusic ,

Not gen z, but God bless 'em. I came to the same conclusion after the first round of layoffs at my first job. They laid off the experts because they had higher salaries and kept the lower paid, less skilled workers. It was completely absurd. Then it happened again, and again. Why would I ever expect my work to treat me with any loyalty or concern when no employer has even shown me or mine any?

catalog3115 ,

Companies were never loyal to worker not in 80s and not now. They are loyal to profit 😁

theparadox ,

“Many of us built, whether it’s bought homes or whatever, based on this promise of stability,” Jesuthasan said. “There was this expectation that the tail was bigger. And we took on liabilities and obligations early on because of that tail. I think this generation has seen that tail dissipate.”

In other words, when millennials did what their parents did and assumed if they worked hard they’d get to live a decent life. Then they got fucked by companies whose priorities became getting as much out of their employees as possible while investing in those employees as little as possible.

As a millennial, I hated the idea of debt. As a result, I’ve had no debt beyond college loans despite being able to afford a lower middle class lifestyle. It took me never living alone (roommates, SOs) but I did it. The education was bullshit and the loans were obscene but I got a piece of paper that helped me keep my job. After working in the public sector for 20+ years I actually had my loans forgiven… and now rent is going through the roof to compensate. Still, I might actually own a home before I’m 50, assuming current and future landlords don’t decide to take me for all I’m worth.

When I finally own a home, I’m sure it’ll get washed away by the thirteenth “century flood” that year or some other bullshit thanks to climate change. So fucking glad I decided not to have kids. Fuck this world.

okamiueru , (edited )

That sounds like a horrible Kafkaesque nightmare. I fear my country is heading in the same direction. I’m saddened that it got so bad in the US, and that the “obvious steps in the right direction” were simply voted against. I’m reminded of the Community episode where they explore the alternative realities. We’re in the “Bernie lost to HIllary” one. Before that happened, I told a friend “Well… if Bernie loses, it’s all going to shit”. Sucks to have been right, although it started some time ago with Reagan gutting the middle class.

We either figure out how to redistribute wealth in the society in the next 30 years, or… “going to shit” will be the least of our problems.

TheDoctorDonna ,

If it makes you feel any better, the rent was going to skyrocket regardless of the loan forgiveness. That’s just the generations before us people trying to make sure they get to the top so they can pull the ladder up behind them.

We have no loan forgiveness here in Canada and rent is still going up faster than anyone can afford. It doesn’t help that all of the politicians are landlords.

EldritchFeminity ,

I just saw the other month that only like 46% of Millennials own a house, compared to the 65% average of other generations. And of those who don’t, 52% of them aren’t saving for a down payment, often because of how shitty wages and even finding a job are. On top of that, only 20% of houses are currently affordable for the average American worker, down from 60% in 2016. And people wonder why we have no faith in the system.

Gen Z saw what happened to Gen X and to us Millennials, and don’t expect it to get any better for them either.

trafficnab ,

My only hope for owning a home is my parents dying at this point

A perfect example of why is, my dad used to work at Boeing, made $30/hr in the 90s

I have a friend (of my generation) who also signed on at Boeing, they’re paying him $26/hr, 30 years later

skeezix ,

That extra $4 pays for the CEO’s superyacht.

trafficnab ,

It pays for the amazing views out the side of your depressurized 737, those don’t come cheap you know

downhomechunk ,
@downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

Millennial here. I was talking to my mom about this recently. We worked out the math of what I earn vs my dad at my age. Then we looked at what I laid for my house vs what they paid for theirs. For context, my parents still live in the same house I grew up in, and my house is in the same neighborhood and roughly the same size.

Their house in 1983 dollars would be about $165k today. My house was $275k in 2019, and that was well below most reasonable comps at the time. Now it’s supposedly worth $400k. At least that’s what my taxes and insurance are based on.

My dad had a solid white collar job. Not c suite, but firmly middle class at the time. I’m finally in a similar position after the 2008 and 2020 bullshit.

His salary when he was about 40 would be $140k in today dollars. I earn nowhere near that and have way more house debt.

Putting it in those terms was really eye opening for both of us. Most of my friends don’t have kids and don’t own a house. Shit, some still even live at home with their parents. We’re definitely not doing better than our baby boomer parents. The American dream died a generation or two before mine.

profdc9 ,

You’re not even number two.

NewAgeOldPerson ,

Of course not. That’s Bono.

Dagwood222 ,

In 1960, minimum wage was $1.00/hour and the price of the average home was $11,000.00. Of course people wanted to work hard and save, because they could see that it paid off almost instantly.

BTW, in 1960 $1 million would buy a mansion, a few nice cars, and a couple of businesses. Today, it’s what a rich guy pays for a party.

DerisionConsulting ,

I wanted to see a graph, and couldn’t find one online.

It looks like, at least in the middle of Canada, being born between 1960 and 1980 was the ideal time if you wanted to buy a home.

This doesn’t take into account mortgage rates, tax rates, average household income, unemployment rates, or other cost of living expenses.
I just wanted a little chart, not to lose my whole day

In the middle of Canada; Winnipeg, MB:

Year Minimum wage House price Price/wage (lower is better)
1960 $0.66 $15,151 22,956
1970 $1.50 $51,678 34,452
1980 $3.15 $53,513 16,988
1990 $4.70 $87,173 18,547
2000 $6.00 $95,520 15,920
2010 $9.50 $231,411 24,359
2020 $11.90 $299,994 25,209

Lazy sources:
www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/history-min.html
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3TKC-H0omc
www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/…/dq980512-eng.htm

ShaggySnacks ,

Minimum wage had an increase of 1,703%. Housing had an increase of 1,880%.

SuddenDownpour ,

That early minimum wage growth is huge. 2,5x during 1960-70, then 2x 10 years later. Imagine minimum wage being $30 by 2030, then $60 by 2040.

DerisionConsulting ,

If we wanted things to keep pace with the house price to wage ratio of 1980(for people born in 1960), Minimum wage should’ve been $17.66 in 2020.

AngryCommieKender ,

In 1960 you could buy an estate in Beverly Hills, or La Jolla, for a cool $100,000

half_built_pyramids ,

I’m immediately click bait suspicious of any reporting that’s generation says this.

S_204 ,

This generation says they’re not falling for your clickbait headlines!

Mango ,

Yeah and a “future-of-work expert”? 🤣

Blackmist ,

Every generation does this. Gen Z can barely afford to.

They don’t really think middle aged man are going into work every day busting their plums, just so some cunt above them can buy a nicer car do they?

Bare minimum, every day, don’t get sacked. Winner.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

This just isn’t true in the US. There’s absolutely a culture among older generations here of people working their ass off for nothing. And those people look down on younger folks who aren’t as stupid as they are, and don’t give away their labor for free.

Crowfiend ,

“I just can’t imagine why anyone wouldn’t want to work!” --my grandma, who’s been supported by my grandpa’s money for as long as I can remember.

Yeah, the people who were brainwashed into thinking that ‘working just to work is great,’ are undeniably unconcerned with the rest of us, and far too many people think that way.

While it’s true that I would want to do something productive with my downtime, and not be wasting it on video games or whatever, I definitely don’t want to do it for some CEO or other higher power who cares as much about me, as I do about the ants in my yard.

EldritchFeminity ,

You’re falling for that propaganda too, a little bit; as are we all. We don’t need to be productive every moment of the day - hell, studies have shown that humans are only really productive about 4 hours out of the day. If you work a 9-5 style job, 4 hours of every day is spent doing things other than being productive. So don’t feel guilty for doing things just because they make you happy. Play video games, make Warhammer models, do silly little drawings that only you will ever see, whatever makes you happy, simply because that’s what life is about: doing things that make us happy. Time spent doing that is never time wasted, and screw the people that tried to convince entire generations that we only have worth as a person if we’re being “productive.”

Zeon ,

This.

TexMexBazooka ,

Not only look down on, but accuse younger generations of being “disrespectful” for not accepting them same level of exploitation from them.

CheeseNoodle ,

You get what you pay for, pay your employees shit and get shit. Completely remove all rewards for hard work and no ones going to be incentivized to do more than the bare minnimum.

iegod ,

It’s shocking how much bare minimum work happens, or how much tossing over the fence and “yeah we’re aware we’ll fix it later” style approaches happen at my job. We can’t hire the right level of expertise because we won’t pay for it. I’ve got a foot out the door and it really doesn’t matter where I go because it will be a raise for the same stupid kind of environment, but at least it’ll be a raise.

Got_Bent ,

At the last big boy firm I worked at, they set the metrics for getting a bonus so unrealistically high that it disincentived staff from even trying. It had a negative effect where everybody purposely did just enough to not get fired rather than killing themselves to come up short and get nothing.

They wanted something stupid like 2,500 billable hours which do not include meetings, continuing education, mandatory volunteer time, etc etc etc.

The biggest rock stars in the industry struggle to hit 2,000.

So we all dropped down to the 1,500 range because fuck that shit.

Mycatiskai ,

What was their reaction the next period? Did they lower the goal or double down and keep it high?

Got_Bent ,

Double down. I’m not sure what happened after. I left about six months later.

The few people who stuck it out have since ascended to great heights. At the time, our regional had been absorbed by a national. I think the regional guys were trying to play tough to show off to their new overlords.

I don’t know, but I suspect that the national was the lesser of those soul crushing forces.

Regardless, you’ve got to be a ruthless sociopath to make it big in that industry. Step on your mother’s grave in Jack boots to get one rung higher type of stuff.

I’ve been playing down in the minors for five years now for about one third the money I could’ve had by now if I had stayed. I regret nothing.

Mycatiskai ,

I’m currently a manager but I’m sending in a proposal this week to take a pay cut and work remotely in a non-manager role so I can move way north and get an acreage. Less responsibility, less money but better life. I like the company but I want a life not a career.

AngryCommieKender ,

2500 / 40 = 62.5

They expected you to work an additional 10.5 weeks, and didn’t count half your duties? No wonder you guys didn’t even try.

Kusimulkku ,

I’m so fucking tired reading articles about boomers this, millenials that, zoomies this.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

All I see is author projection.

Dagwood222 ,

What you’re seeing is the result of decades of Reaganomics coming home to roost.

Look up Hunter’ Thompson’s book about the “Hell’s Angels.” There’s a chapter on the economics of being a biker/hippie/artist circa 1970.

A biker could work six months as a Union stevedore and earn enough to live on the road for two years, and a part time waitress could support herself and a musician boyfriend.

HubertManne ,
@HubertManne@kbin.social avatar

many genx i know to and im guessing millenial as well.

menthol ,

Meanwhile, celebrities including Whoopi Goldberg have dismissed their economic struggles. She said they couldn’t afford to buy a house because they’re lazy and “only want to work four hours” a day.

Is every single host of The View a giant piece of shit, or what? We saw this exact same bullshit just the other day from one of the other ones. They should change the name to The Karen.

AnarchoSnowPlow ,

They all belong to a specific economic class.

Money rots your brain.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

The problem, or at least one of them, is that those words resonate so well with her viewers. I am not excusing her, but if she did not say them then someone else would - so yeah it’s more the game than the playa.

People in Gen-Z just don’t work hard as often. Ofc there are reasons: why should they, when their work isn’t valued/rewarded properly? So then to the self-ish/-centered crowd, all they see is that they get served less well by their Gen-Z slaves workers than the Millennials who put in more of an effort, but rather than take ownership of that and like go somewhere else that pays their workers better, they instead blame the victim. Like, “I paid a whole dollar for this burger - why aren’t you smiling at me harder as you walk out in the rain to hand-deliver it to me?”

Like if you have to live with your parents or roommates anyway, and have little to no hope of ever owning your own home, or possibly even car, and also can’t afford health insurance, to get married, and after over-turning of Roe v. Wade to have sex (even if you were married), etc. then why should you work more than the bare minimum to survive?

If you kick a dog often enough, it stops being happy to see you.:-( Boomers solution: it must need to be kicked harder, until it complies and wags its tail enthusiastically whenever you come home. I am sorry if it breaks your heart to read that sentence… but fwiw, at least it proves you have one:-).

menthol ,

People in Gen-Z just don’t work hard as often.

Is that really true though? I’m Gen-X and they said the same thing about us, and then the Millennials, and now the current gen. I think quit quitting is largely a myth and plenty of GenZ are working their asses off. They’re not getting the same rewards. But I can also understand if some them do choose to opt out. But the fact that they can’t afford to buy homes is not proof that they are lazy.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

That’s a good point but… I honestly do not know. We used to have access to “reporting” that would tell us “facts”, but now everything is commercialized to sell us whatever story seems most appealing to us (positively or negatively, whatever you will click on really: sex sells, fear even better, anger best of all) - so I’m sure you can find reports on all possible sides telling different stories, all with short-changed selections of facts and virtually no analysis to speak of. Unless a highly-trusted source chooses to take on a precise topic and you happen to have consumed it already (and remember it), you are basically SOL. Like, how do people even buy things anymore, either online or in physical stores, except by just gambling and hoping for the best from a purchase? Clothes just flat disintegrate, … okay, I better keep focus here:-).

I tend to think that Gen-Z likely do work less hard - as a trend if not individually ofc - b/c of the reasons behind it, after all why would they work equally as hard, when they are being offered a fraction of the compensation? BTW I never said that they were lazy, and I tried to go to some trouble to explain why it is understandable how they are reacting - e.g. in the kick the dog example, it’s not the dog’s fault for not liking the master that kicked it so very, very often?

As one example, something that enticed previous generations to work hard was to own a home. But now, if that is off the table… (or maybe, if they think it is? I’m not certain of this aspect) then they don’t need to work as hard, to own something that they can never own anyway?

Another thing that enticed previous generations to work hard for was to get a college degree. But now, with that costing >5x as much, and it being worth sth like 1/10th of what it was to previous generations (where are these magical “jobs” that offer things like “benefits” - and “stability” and “pensions” are pretty much flat gone, as too are the social security along with medicare/medicaid safety nets, etc.), plus colleges themselves are fairly predatory, many just don’t bother. But there’s a whole spectrum here: if they do go, they often don’t work hard in them - not that colleges demand that anymore, b/c again, they are predatory, and their purpose is to pump either the kids or their parents (or loans, whoever signed them) for as much money as they can get out of them, which doesn’t happen if they flunk out too awfully early…

Still another thing used to be to get married, have kids, and independent of whether owning a home or not, to raise a family. This we can directly measure: isn’t Gen-Z doing much less of any of this?

Boomers worked hard b/c they saw value ahead in doing so. Gen-Z is getting their quality of life now, while the getting is good, b/c that is all that is left for them to be able to do.:-( No matter our age, we will all die sooner, and in much greater levels of pain and misery (if only second-hand by hearing stories of the exploitation going on around us) than our parents’ generation - the Republicans have already seen to that and will most definitely continue to push much harder on that front still. :-(

menthol ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    OpenStars ,
    @OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

    Precisely my point. Like when you kick a dog, why would it say “thank you”, or “please sir, but could you kick me again some more, and this time harder”? THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN!

    The younger generations have given up, hence they do not work as hard, but it wasn’t their choice - they simply reacted to what was offered them. From a pure game-theoretical standpoint even, it is the right call to maximize gains and minimize losses, given the rules under which they are “playing”.

    But the people blaming the younger generations… it is like blaming that dog, rather than the one who kicked it - it makes no sense?

    Sterile_Technique ,
    @Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world avatar

    That cycle will continue until we’re extinct, because almost without exception, we conflate generations with age ranges… so every generation will think the one behind it is lazy because they judge that next generation when it’s made up of a bunch of kids.

    And no shit, kids aren’t great workers :shockedpikachu:

    The kids grow up, but the reputation lingers… until the next batch of kids enters the stage, and wouldn’t ya know it, them kids are absolutely shit workers! :shockedpikachu:

    Rinse and repeat until the oxygen concentration in our atmosphere is no longer sufficient to support human life… so… couple more decades? /shrug

    Kushia ,
    @Kushia@lemmy.ml avatar

    The cost of living crisis in western countries at the moment feels like a stand off between boomers and gen Z over exactly this. One one hand you have the boomers expecting the same service and quality while paying less and less, on the other you have gen Z who refuse to do it for the pittance. So the cost of living is now skyrocketing in an attempt to strong-arm gen Z into compliance.

    OpenStars ,
    @OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

    I understand that it looks that way from the outside, but that is far too simplistic - i.e., correlation is not causation, especially where the latter is already known. What is CAUSING so much pain right now is corporate greed, and what ALLOWS that is primarily voting Democrat vs. Republican, with the heaviest voting block being evangelical Christian vs. not. A complicating factor is that baby boomers are somewhat insulated from the worst effects, plus their retirement savings are often tied up into the stock market that is what rich people want to succeed, plus they don’t do themselves much credit by being remarkably unsympathetic to the plight of how the younger generations are being sold into corporate near-slavery, plus on top of it all they do trend more towards voting conservative to begin with, etc. But e.g. a young Republican does far more harm than an old Democrat, i.e. age is one of the more minor correlating effects.

    An illustration may help: right now if a 10-year old girl is raped by her very own father and gets pregnant, the primary discriminator of whether she will live or is consigned to have a VERY good chance of dying (in agony) is whether she lives in an area that votes primarily Democratic or one that votes primarily Republican. This is the stuff that is literally life and death.

    Beyond that, the effects of inflation, the availability of jobs, whether the government of the state that you are in is bankrupt, and/or has any/no competent/sufficient firefighters/police/teachers/medical staff/etc. all correlate with Republican vs. Democrat. Look at COVID death rates to see which area is which, especially after the vaccine existed.

    In short, there are two different Americas right now, one being mostly third-world (except still has internet and TV and cars and stuff, but I still would not call it second-world when the child mortality rate is somewhere between Rwanda and Uganda, and has been about that level for decades) and the other first-world. And they are tearing at each other, one being never happy with the way things are and wanting to go still further back in time, floating such thoughts as whether women should still be allowed to vote, plus literally calling for a “national divorce” (with prejudice - i.e. a literal, murderous, bloody Civil War part 2), and the other also wanting basically not that. So similar to Brexit, we are basically ready for Amexit? Except from ourselves. Which will affect the entire fucking world b/c if Biden loses and Trump comes in again, what are the chances that this time he discovers that he can control nukes?

    Anyway, yes old people helped bring this about, but mostly by inaction and while I am not saying that mistakes were not made, I am saying that much of the media rhetoric about the generations being at each others’ throats is… if not entirely false, then at least mostly so. i.e., it is not old people attacking the younger ones, it is corporations attacking us all (but who would like it very much if we would simply pretend that they were not involved? thus they bought up all the media, and now good luck hearing a story that ever says that they are complicit in anything).

    paraphrand ,

    The internet is the reason they get to grow up with tons of details about how and why these promises are bullshit and vapor.

    1984 ,
    @1984@lemmy.today avatar

    Corporate America is a shit lifestyle and double digit iq is enough to realize that.

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