Kusimulkku ,

I’m so fucking tired reading articles about boomers this, millenials that, zoomies this.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

All I see is author projection.

Dagwood222 ,

What you’re seeing is the result of decades of Reaganomics coming home to roost.

Look up Hunter’ Thompson’s book about the “Hell’s Angels.” There’s a chapter on the economics of being a biker/hippie/artist circa 1970.

A biker could work six months as a Union stevedore and earn enough to live on the road for two years, and a part time waitress could support herself and a musician boyfriend.

CheeseNoodle ,

You get what you pay for, pay your employees shit and get shit. Completely remove all rewards for hard work and no ones going to be incentivized to do more than the bare minnimum.

iegod ,

It’s shocking how much bare minimum work happens, or how much tossing over the fence and “yeah we’re aware we’ll fix it later” style approaches happen at my job. We can’t hire the right level of expertise because we won’t pay for it. I’ve got a foot out the door and it really doesn’t matter where I go because it will be a raise for the same stupid kind of environment, but at least it’ll be a raise.

Got_Bent ,

At the last big boy firm I worked at, they set the metrics for getting a bonus so unrealistically high that it disincentived staff from even trying. It had a negative effect where everybody purposely did just enough to not get fired rather than killing themselves to come up short and get nothing.

They wanted something stupid like 2,500 billable hours which do not include meetings, continuing education, mandatory volunteer time, etc etc etc.

The biggest rock stars in the industry struggle to hit 2,000.

So we all dropped down to the 1,500 range because fuck that shit.

Mycatiskai ,

What was their reaction the next period? Did they lower the goal or double down and keep it high?

Got_Bent ,

Double down. I’m not sure what happened after. I left about six months later.

The few people who stuck it out have since ascended to great heights. At the time, our regional had been absorbed by a national. I think the regional guys were trying to play tough to show off to their new overlords.

I don’t know, but I suspect that the national was the lesser of those soul crushing forces.

Regardless, you’ve got to be a ruthless sociopath to make it big in that industry. Step on your mother’s grave in Jack boots to get one rung higher type of stuff.

I’ve been playing down in the minors for five years now for about one third the money I could’ve had by now if I had stayed. I regret nothing.

Mycatiskai ,

I’m currently a manager but I’m sending in a proposal this week to take a pay cut and work remotely in a non-manager role so I can move way north and get an acreage. Less responsibility, less money but better life. I like the company but I want a life not a career.

AngryCommieKender ,

2500 / 40 = 62.5

They expected you to work an additional 10.5 weeks, and didn’t count half your duties? No wonder you guys didn’t even try.

Blackmist ,

Every generation does this. Gen Z can barely afford to.

They don’t really think middle aged man are going into work every day busting their plums, just so some cunt above them can buy a nicer car do they?

Bare minimum, every day, don’t get sacked. Winner.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

This just isn’t true in the US. There’s absolutely a culture among older generations here of people working their ass off for nothing. And those people look down on younger folks who aren’t as stupid as they are, and don’t give away their labor for free.

Crowfiend ,

“I just can’t imagine why anyone wouldn’t want to work!” --my grandma, who’s been supported by my grandpa’s money for as long as I can remember.

Yeah, the people who were brainwashed into thinking that ‘working just to work is great,’ are undeniably unconcerned with the rest of us, and far too many people think that way.

While it’s true that I would want to do something productive with my downtime, and not be wasting it on video games or whatever, I definitely don’t want to do it for some CEO or other higher power who cares as much about me, as I do about the ants in my yard.

EldritchFeminity ,

You’re falling for that propaganda too, a little bit; as are we all. We don’t need to be productive every moment of the day - hell, studies have shown that humans are only really productive about 4 hours out of the day. If you work a 9-5 style job, 4 hours of every day is spent doing things other than being productive. So don’t feel guilty for doing things just because they make you happy. Play video games, make Warhammer models, do silly little drawings that only you will ever see, whatever makes you happy, simply because that’s what life is about: doing things that make us happy. Time spent doing that is never time wasted, and screw the people that tried to convince entire generations that we only have worth as a person if we’re being “productive.”

Zeon ,

This.

TexMexBazooka ,

Not only look down on, but accuse younger generations of being “disrespectful” for not accepting them same level of exploitation from them.

Showroom7561 ,

living over working

Yes, we all want that. But…

Are they eating air? Living with their parents? Accumulating debt?

What are their plans for the next 50 years, because living will get a hell of a lot harder than it is now.

We’ve all been forced to put work over life, just to survive long enough to work past retirement age.

Takios ,

You missed a word. It says “prioritizing living over working”. The promise was to work hard and a lot to get a good lifestyle (house, a nice car or two, vacations). Now it’s work hard but without those rewards in sight. So we cut back on working to a point where we can still have an okay lifestyle.

Showroom7561 ,

What does an OK lifestyle look like if you aren’t prioritizing work?

I’m not being critical to sound like an ass. I think we’re all stuck in the same, miserable, work-dependant lifestyle, and it’s aweful.

Takios ,

I realize I’m privileged as my situation is a lot better than having to live paycheck to paycheck. However, if I wanted to get a nice house, decent car, vacations, etc. I’d have to put in a lot more work than the usual 40 hours. Instead of doing that though I looked at my finances and decided, I could reduce my hours to 35 without decreasing my quality of life too much so I did that instead.

I do understand though that people in precarious and less-compensated jobs cannot afford this luxury.

Showroom7561 ,

Yeah, if you’ve got a high-paying job then you have the means to not have to prioritize work. Hopefully, that remains constant over the next several decades.

But how many Gen Z’ers are in that position?

We keep seeing articles about Gen Z’ers not being able to afford rent, let alone food and other basic comforts. They are, or will be, forced to put work first. Not just working harder to get the luxuries of their grandparents or parents, but working harder to scrape by.

And I don’t even see and end to this. Corporations will eventually abolish retirement, because very few will be able to retire the way things keep going.

Ookami38 ,

I think the idea is that a lot of people prioritize only their work. The whole hustle grindset thing, working obscene hours to try to get rich. Instead of doing that, seeing that whole rat race for what it is, doing enough work to get by, and then actually enjoying your time elsewhere seems to be what this is advocating for.

Showroom7561 ,

I think the idea is that a lot of people prioritize only their work.

Is this really a thing? Has it ever been for the masses?

Sure, people might prioritize work over anything else when they are young, but that’s often necessary to secure a future.

Other people live to work, but that’s pretty rare.

Instead of doing that, seeing that whole rat race for what it is, doing enough work to get by, and then actually enjoying your time elsewhere seems to be what this is advocating for.

I thought that what most people do. Does anyone actually believe that working hard at their low-paying job is going to make them rich? I thought that idea was dead decades ago.

Ookami38 ,

Just look at the hustle grindset, or sigma grind, or whatever you want to call it. No, most people aren’t working 120 hours a week at a McDonald’s, but a lot more are getting multiple jobs, side hustles, etc to get to “get ahead” in the game.

Showroom7561 ,

To get ahead or to get by? Nobody who’s grinding two or three jobs is wealthy, and I think they’re only doing it to pay the bills because a single job doesn’t cut it anymore.

I’ve spoken with uber drivers who already have a “good job” but they need money to support their parents who are living with them, perhaps multiple kids, etc. It really sucks to be in that situation because work is all you do.

Ookami38 ,

Do the minimum to put the food you like on the table, to afford a place to live, and then fuck off for the rest of the time. No OT, no projects outside of work hrs, no checking email overnight. Do your job, to the level that is strictly required, and reprioritize yourself any other time.

Showroom7561 ,

And you think that’ll allow you to retire at 65? 85?

Look, I get it. I don’t prioritize work over “life”, but I’m not naive to believe that I’ll have a comfortable retirement, because I won’t.

I think the majority of us will stuggle tremendously in the coming decades.

Ookami38 ,

I never said you’d be able to comfortably retire. That’s another part of it. The younger generations know they won’t retire at all, or at a reasonable time, so just do your 40, get enough to live, and go do something actually fulfilling.

Cracks_InTheWalls ,
@Cracks_InTheWalls@sh.itjust.works avatar

Most don’t expect to retire ever - they will work enough to survive until they die, naturally or otherwise.

Whether this is bleak realism or self-fulfilling, dangerous pessimism is an interesting question.

TheDoctorDonna ,

So because the generations before them made the wrong choice, they have as well?

If my kids live with my my whole life I am A-OK with that.

Showroom7561 ,

So because the generations before them made the wrong choice, they have as well?

I’m not punishing younger generations, I’m saying that they’re even more screwed than previous generations, so they’ll still need to work hard… it just won’t get them any luxuries.

If my kids live with my my whole life I am A-OK with that.

You might be, but not everyone wants that, especially in homes where there is no separation (like no basement apartment). That could be a nightmare for both parents and the adult child.

Ookami38 ,

I think you’re agreeing with each other, except that no one in this thread actually thinks working hard will bring you anything in this day and age.

Showroom7561 ,

I don’t think working hard these days will bring you anything except regrets later and life, and maybe put food on the table.

Ookami38 ,

I… Yeah? We’re agreeing with each other? What’s the argument?

Dagwood222 ,

In 1960, minimum wage was $1.00/hour and the price of the average home was $11,000.00. Of course people wanted to work hard and save, because they could see that it paid off almost instantly.

BTW, in 1960 $1 million would buy a mansion, a few nice cars, and a couple of businesses. Today, it’s what a rich guy pays for a party.

DerisionConsulting ,

I wanted to see a graph, and couldn’t find one online.

It looks like, at least in the middle of Canada, being born between 1960 and 1980 was the ideal time if you wanted to buy a home.

This doesn’t take into account mortgage rates, tax rates, average household income, unemployment rates, or other cost of living expenses.
I just wanted a little chart, not to lose my whole day

In the middle of Canada; Winnipeg, MB:

Year Minimum wage House price Price/wage (lower is better)
1960 $0.66 $15,151 22,956
1970 $1.50 $51,678 34,452
1980 $3.15 $53,513 16,988
1990 $4.70 $87,173 18,547
2000 $6.00 $95,520 15,920
2010 $9.50 $231,411 24,359
2020 $11.90 $299,994 25,209

Lazy sources:
www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/history-min.html
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3TKC-H0omc
www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/…/dq980512-eng.htm

ShaggySnacks ,

Minimum wage had an increase of 1,703%. Housing had an increase of 1,880%.

SuddenDownpour ,

That early minimum wage growth is huge. 2,5x during 1960-70, then 2x 10 years later. Imagine minimum wage being $30 by 2030, then $60 by 2040.

DerisionConsulting ,

If we wanted things to keep pace with the house price to wage ratio of 1980(for people born in 1960), Minimum wage should’ve been $17.66 in 2020.

AngryCommieKender ,

In 1960 you could buy an estate in Beverly Hills, or La Jolla, for a cool $100,000

theparadox ,

“Many of us built, whether it’s bought homes or whatever, based on this promise of stability,” Jesuthasan said. “There was this expectation that the tail was bigger. And we took on liabilities and obligations early on because of that tail. I think this generation has seen that tail dissipate.”

In other words, when millennials did what their parents did and assumed if they worked hard they’d get to live a decent life. Then they got fucked by companies whose priorities became getting as much out of their employees as possible while investing in those employees as little as possible.

As a millennial, I hated the idea of debt. As a result, I’ve had no debt beyond college loans despite being able to afford a lower middle class lifestyle. It took me never living alone (roommates, SOs) but I did it. The education was bullshit and the loans were obscene but I got a piece of paper that helped me keep my job. After working in the public sector for 20+ years I actually had my loans forgiven… and now rent is going through the roof to compensate. Still, I might actually own a home before I’m 50, assuming current and future landlords don’t decide to take me for all I’m worth.

When I finally own a home, I’m sure it’ll get washed away by the thirteenth “century flood” that year or some other bullshit thanks to climate change. So fucking glad I decided not to have kids. Fuck this world.

okamiueru , (edited )

That sounds like a horrible Kafkaesque nightmare. I fear my country is heading in the same direction. I’m saddened that it got so bad in the US, and that the “obvious steps in the right direction” were simply voted against. I’m reminded of the Community episode where they explore the alternative realities. We’re in the “Bernie lost to HIllary” one. Before that happened, I told a friend “Well… if Bernie loses, it’s all going to shit”. Sucks to have been right, although it started some time ago with Reagan gutting the middle class.

We either figure out how to redistribute wealth in the society in the next 30 years, or… “going to shit” will be the least of our problems.

TheDoctorDonna ,

If it makes you feel any better, the rent was going to skyrocket regardless of the loan forgiveness. That’s just the generations before us people trying to make sure they get to the top so they can pull the ladder up behind them.

We have no loan forgiveness here in Canada and rent is still going up faster than anyone can afford. It doesn’t help that all of the politicians are landlords.

EldritchFeminity ,

I just saw the other month that only like 46% of Millennials own a house, compared to the 65% average of other generations. And of those who don’t, 52% of them aren’t saving for a down payment, often because of how shitty wages and even finding a job are. On top of that, only 20% of houses are currently affordable for the average American worker, down from 60% in 2016. And people wonder why we have no faith in the system.

Gen Z saw what happened to Gen X and to us Millennials, and don’t expect it to get any better for them either.

trafficnab ,

My only hope for owning a home is my parents dying at this point

A perfect example of why is, my dad used to work at Boeing, made $30/hr in the 90s

I have a friend (of my generation) who also signed on at Boeing, they’re paying him $26/hr, 30 years later

skeezix ,

That extra $4 pays for the CEO’s superyacht.

trafficnab ,

It pays for the amazing views out the side of your depressurized 737, those don’t come cheap you know

downhomechunk ,
@downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

Millennial here. I was talking to my mom about this recently. We worked out the math of what I earn vs my dad at my age. Then we looked at what I laid for my house vs what they paid for theirs. For context, my parents still live in the same house I grew up in, and my house is in the same neighborhood and roughly the same size.

Their house in 1983 dollars would be about $165k today. My house was $275k in 2019, and that was well below most reasonable comps at the time. Now it’s supposedly worth $400k. At least that’s what my taxes and insurance are based on.

My dad had a solid white collar job. Not c suite, but firmly middle class at the time. I’m finally in a similar position after the 2008 and 2020 bullshit.

His salary when he was about 40 would be $140k in today dollars. I earn nowhere near that and have way more house debt.

Putting it in those terms was really eye opening for both of us. Most of my friends don’t have kids and don’t own a house. Shit, some still even live at home with their parents. We’re definitely not doing better than our baby boomer parents. The American dream died a generation or two before mine.

paraphrand ,

The internet is the reason they get to grow up with tons of details about how and why these promises are bullshit and vapor.

1984 ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Corporate America is a shit lifestyle and double digit iq is enough to realize that.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

i remember reading similar headlines about millenials… this bullshit is always targeted at young adults, and its always the same superficial “analysis”

Shapillon ,

from a “future of work expert”

bAZtARd ,

A guy from my wife’s age group is a federal government advisor regarding future of work. He has never worked a day in a proper job at a company. Only academics and politics.

Shapillon ,

To me it reeked more of tv expertness than anything else. Usually real academics are tamer in their assertions and have pretty solid conclusions.

Donkter ,

Promise of what? I think the major change with millennials and gen z is that we see through the dogmatism that is corporate culture. Even if the promise was that of the “American dream” 50 years ago it’s quite clearly not worth it to sacrifice your youth and 1/3 of your life (another third being sleep) to afford to sit around in a house and squeeze in stagnant social obligations for the rest of your life.

Life is what you make of it, and familial loyalty to a company that doesn’t care about me just doesn’t cut it.

autokludge ,
@autokludge@programming.dev avatar

A corporate ‘promise’ is a verbal unenforceable contract. What do you even do with the promise of a habitual liar?

Algaroth ,

A house? In this economy?

owen ,

A tent in the designated homelessness zone is more apt

Algaroth ,

A homeless zone? In this society?

owen ,

Hmm yeah you’re right. I guess I will just scuttle around the sewers on all fours and eat trash

Algaroth ,

You can order pizza according to the cartoons I grew up watching. It didn’t ever cover how the teenage turtles and their rat mentor made money. Try to find a reporter in a jumpsuit she might be able to help.

not_again ,

Surely you overestimate their chances.

raynethackery ,

Too bad the Force isn’t with us.

perpetually_fried ,

Then don’t work at a corporation. There are plenty of startups / small businesses out there who are in dire need of talented people.

EldritchFeminity ,

In my experience, small businesses can be even worse, because they’re run by the kind of middle management that everybody hates in a big company. Except now they’re the boss and have final say over everything that happens in the company.

balancedchaos ,

My brother works for a small business. They got him in the door by being his buddy, just fun-loving fellow millennials who love to have a great time at work while having plenty of opportunities to move up within the company!

…he hasn’t gotten a raise in three years, and has had myriad issues unfairly pinned on him (legitimately) so he can’t move up in the ranks.

They’re just young boomers doing the same boomer shit, but they’re a little younger and cooler, bro!

EldritchFeminity ,

Yep, worked for a small business as a teen. My experience was that the boss was decent at giving us raises every year, but got pissed when people gave us tips, never had enough people on hand to account for kids going on vacation or getting sick, and, as my buddy would say, “he’s the first person to tell you that there’s more than one way to skin a cat - but his way is the right way.” Dude couldn’t understand why kids on their summer vacation wouldn’t want to work 45 hours a week.

stoly ,

Yes, but there’s a ping pong table and open bar dontchaknow?

stoly ,

My experience agrees with this 100%.

stoly ,

The single most toxic place to work is a startup. The people who make it there tend to be entitled narcissists.

jackalope ,

Start ups are still corps bud.

stoly ,

Some of us gen x saw this in high school but were surrounded by angry boomers who treated us like we were idiots.

the_q ,

No one has ever wanted to work.

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

This is a hot take. People have definitely wanted to work. The problem is now we don’t need to. There was a point that humans needed to work or we would not evolve as a species. There are many that took pride in being a part of that. Now that need has shifted into we could feasibly feed and shelter every soul on the planet and a few greedy fucks don’t know how to coordinate it with all their riches.

executivechimp ,
@executivechimp@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Depends what you mean by work. People always want to do things and create things and help others. They don’t want to spend 8 hours a day doing menial, meaningless crap just to be able live.

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

My point is that they did. Back when there was a sense of accomplishment that added to the human existence. There was a sense of pride to a lot of workers in the 50s for many reasons. I do agree that it has changed. And a lot of it has to do with the rewards given. But they still exist.

the_q ,

I don’t think they have. I think they were made to labor under the whip or under a promise for something. You’re like that other guy thinking the guy cracking the whip or promoting the latest video game are “working”.

The freedom to pursue ones interests isn’t work.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

You make it sound like there is only dirt poor people forced to work or criminally rich people with “freedom to peruse their interests”

Somehow having a job you like in this situation makes it not work.

LOL, nah man, I found WORK and I like it and it’s still called WORK.

the_q ,

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

The idea that work stops being work if you enjoy it not something I can take seriously.

the_q ,

Working in a textile mill in 120 degree heat is work. It’s work no one wants to do. No one comes in and argues pedantically about “well I find sweating my ass off for minimum wage fulfilling”. That’s work.

Going into your temperature controlled office where you’re a CPA and get paid wonderfully and enjoy numbers isn’t the same thing at all.

The work I’m referencing is the bottom tier shit that without it the economy would crumble. Not your SEO manager bullshit job that you think you love cause you’re making 6 figures in a 5 figure town.

snek , (edited )
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Buddy, working in a textile mill in 48 °C is a safety hazard and modern slavery. You have a weird warped pedantic perspective on what work means. And somejow the rest of us should take the dictionary definition and throw it out of the window and instead adopt your made up definition that seems to only work in your head? 😬 No thanks.

The first is modern slavery. The second is work. Hope it helps! Cheers.

Ps: SEO manager? Clearly it was a mistake to engage you at all because you didn’t read squat shit of what I wrote. Note to the future: do not engage people who haven’t even read your own text, and don’t bother reading their text to the end. They are upset at a phantom in their heads, not you.

the_q ,

Yeah you’re definitely one of those people that talks louder than whoever they’re talking with and assumes they’re right. Enjoy your “work”.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I am enjoying it, thanks.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Wow what a sweeping statement with no legs to stand on.

I love work. I worked (yes) quite hard to get a degree and become a developer and ML engineer. One day, I’d like to work in computational neuroscience. I hate so many things about work culture, but the work itself? Naaah, it’s awesome. I’d rather spend every day in this life working on something I love and have interested in, instead of going around making sweeping statements about the entire globe on the internet, incapable of accepting that not everyone is like me.

owen ,

Modern “work” does not involve doing something you’re passionate about or interested in for the vast majority of people…

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Yep so not “all” of them.

owen ,

Check out the term “hyperbole”

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Oh my oh my sorry for taking people in the internet at face value. Next time I’ll just guess what their thought process was and live my life based on that.

owen ,

Thanks but apology declined

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Here’s another one: I’m so sorry your life must really suck with work and all to the point that you can’t see other people enjoying it and where you feel the need to say they aren’t really “working” just because they found something they love and succeeded in navigating the shitty system (out or merit or luck or privilege, whatever) and you didn’t /:

We can all be on the same side. I hate modern work culture and I actively try to improve it and myself day after day. I’m sure you do too.

Could you accept that one too?

Cheers bud.

owen ,

No. Also, I like my job

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Of course you do 🙄

owen ,

?

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Nothing, I just totally believe you and agree with you. Have a nice day. ☺️

owen ,

You need to consider that most jobs out there are simply things that need to be done, not things that people are passionate about. Getting a higher eductation and a complex job is something for which I consider myself very lucky. I was born with all the opportunities to do so. Despite these privileges, I acknowledge that the people doing the fundamental, low level jobs deserve adequate compensation to lead a happy life

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

You need to consider that most jobs out there are simply things that need to be done

This was always my view. I don’t think I said anything at all that implies otherwise. So we already agree. My original comment was in response to someone saying no one ever in existence wanted to work. Surely you’ve met idiots on the internet and had to explain things to them before, no? Hard for me to assume they were using a literary device. I’d rather take them at face value.

Melatonin ,

Lol, good try at turning snek’s argument against him, but that was clearly sarcasm.

owen is the reason /s was invented.

owen ,

Burh. As if I would say “apology declined” in earnest

Melatonin ,

Cheating. This is akin to saying, “I was just kidding!”

owen ,

Cheating? This isn’t a game, it’s a conversation

Melatonin ,

Cheating. Changed the definition of the word “work”

the_q ,

Whatever you do isn’t work, buddy and you knew that before replying.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

It literally Is work, and you knew that before replying /: see we can both say shit like that.

the_q ,

You need it to be defined as work.

SuddenDownpour ,

I feel the same way.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Then get ready for lots of downvotes because apparently pointing out that someone made a sweeping generalization then telling the world you’re one of those few who enjoy their jobs means you deserve being downvoted to hell 😁

Melatonin ,

snek’s statement still stands. They announced they love work. It negates the prior statement. Why downvote then?

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I thought this was Work Reform, not Anti Work 😭 my mistake

mo_lave ,

If you live in more ancient times, do you want to be a slave?

GrayBackgroundMusic ,

Soft disagree. I want to do meaningful work and interesting work. It’s boring bullshit getting 10 managers to approve a change when none of them know what I even do. I love working on my projects in my garage, or in my kitchen on baking something.

some_guy ,

“Gen Z is catching on. Vilify them!”

ArugulaZ ,
@ArugulaZ@kbin.social avatar

Why the hell shouldn't they?

menthol ,

Meanwhile, celebrities including Whoopi Goldberg have dismissed their economic struggles. She said they couldn’t afford to buy a house because they’re lazy and “only want to work four hours” a day.

Is every single host of The View a giant piece of shit, or what? We saw this exact same bullshit just the other day from one of the other ones. They should change the name to The Karen.

AnarchoSnowPlow ,

They all belong to a specific economic class.

Money rots your brain.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

The problem, or at least one of them, is that those words resonate so well with her viewers. I am not excusing her, but if she did not say them then someone else would - so yeah it’s more the game than the playa.

People in Gen-Z just don’t work hard as often. Ofc there are reasons: why should they, when their work isn’t valued/rewarded properly? So then to the self-ish/-centered crowd, all they see is that they get served less well by their Gen-Z slaves workers than the Millennials who put in more of an effort, but rather than take ownership of that and like go somewhere else that pays their workers better, they instead blame the victim. Like, “I paid a whole dollar for this burger - why aren’t you smiling at me harder as you walk out in the rain to hand-deliver it to me?”

Like if you have to live with your parents or roommates anyway, and have little to no hope of ever owning your own home, or possibly even car, and also can’t afford health insurance, to get married, and after over-turning of Roe v. Wade to have sex (even if you were married), etc. then why should you work more than the bare minimum to survive?

If you kick a dog often enough, it stops being happy to see you.:-( Boomers solution: it must need to be kicked harder, until it complies and wags its tail enthusiastically whenever you come home. I am sorry if it breaks your heart to read that sentence… but fwiw, at least it proves you have one:-).

menthol ,

People in Gen-Z just don’t work hard as often.

Is that really true though? I’m Gen-X and they said the same thing about us, and then the Millennials, and now the current gen. I think quit quitting is largely a myth and plenty of GenZ are working their asses off. They’re not getting the same rewards. But I can also understand if some them do choose to opt out. But the fact that they can’t afford to buy homes is not proof that they are lazy.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

That’s a good point but… I honestly do not know. We used to have access to “reporting” that would tell us “facts”, but now everything is commercialized to sell us whatever story seems most appealing to us (positively or negatively, whatever you will click on really: sex sells, fear even better, anger best of all) - so I’m sure you can find reports on all possible sides telling different stories, all with short-changed selections of facts and virtually no analysis to speak of. Unless a highly-trusted source chooses to take on a precise topic and you happen to have consumed it already (and remember it), you are basically SOL. Like, how do people even buy things anymore, either online or in physical stores, except by just gambling and hoping for the best from a purchase? Clothes just flat disintegrate, … okay, I better keep focus here:-).

I tend to think that Gen-Z likely do work less hard - as a trend if not individually ofc - b/c of the reasons behind it, after all why would they work equally as hard, when they are being offered a fraction of the compensation? BTW I never said that they were lazy, and I tried to go to some trouble to explain why it is understandable how they are reacting - e.g. in the kick the dog example, it’s not the dog’s fault for not liking the master that kicked it so very, very often?

As one example, something that enticed previous generations to work hard was to own a home. But now, if that is off the table… (or maybe, if they think it is? I’m not certain of this aspect) then they don’t need to work as hard, to own something that they can never own anyway?

Another thing that enticed previous generations to work hard for was to get a college degree. But now, with that costing >5x as much, and it being worth sth like 1/10th of what it was to previous generations (where are these magical “jobs” that offer things like “benefits” - and “stability” and “pensions” are pretty much flat gone, as too are the social security along with medicare/medicaid safety nets, etc.), plus colleges themselves are fairly predatory, many just don’t bother. But there’s a whole spectrum here: if they do go, they often don’t work hard in them - not that colleges demand that anymore, b/c again, they are predatory, and their purpose is to pump either the kids or their parents (or loans, whoever signed them) for as much money as they can get out of them, which doesn’t happen if they flunk out too awfully early…

Still another thing used to be to get married, have kids, and independent of whether owning a home or not, to raise a family. This we can directly measure: isn’t Gen-Z doing much less of any of this?

Boomers worked hard b/c they saw value ahead in doing so. Gen-Z is getting their quality of life now, while the getting is good, b/c that is all that is left for them to be able to do.:-( No matter our age, we will all die sooner, and in much greater levels of pain and misery (if only second-hand by hearing stories of the exploitation going on around us) than our parents’ generation - the Republicans have already seen to that and will most definitely continue to push much harder on that front still. :-(

menthol ,

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    OpenStars ,
    @OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

    Precisely my point. Like when you kick a dog, why would it say “thank you”, or “please sir, but could you kick me again some more, and this time harder”? THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN!

    The younger generations have given up, hence they do not work as hard, but it wasn’t their choice - they simply reacted to what was offered them. From a pure game-theoretical standpoint even, it is the right call to maximize gains and minimize losses, given the rules under which they are “playing”.

    But the people blaming the younger generations… it is like blaming that dog, rather than the one who kicked it - it makes no sense?

    Sterile_Technique ,
    @Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world avatar

    That cycle will continue until we’re extinct, because almost without exception, we conflate generations with age ranges… so every generation will think the one behind it is lazy because they judge that next generation when it’s made up of a bunch of kids.

    And no shit, kids aren’t great workers :shockedpikachu:

    The kids grow up, but the reputation lingers… until the next batch of kids enters the stage, and wouldn’t ya know it, them kids are absolutely shit workers! :shockedpikachu:

    Rinse and repeat until the oxygen concentration in our atmosphere is no longer sufficient to support human life… so… couple more decades? /shrug

    Kushia ,
    @Kushia@lemmy.ml avatar

    The cost of living crisis in western countries at the moment feels like a stand off between boomers and gen Z over exactly this. One one hand you have the boomers expecting the same service and quality while paying less and less, on the other you have gen Z who refuse to do it for the pittance. So the cost of living is now skyrocketing in an attempt to strong-arm gen Z into compliance.

    OpenStars ,
    @OpenStars@startrek.website avatar

    I understand that it looks that way from the outside, but that is far too simplistic - i.e., correlation is not causation, especially where the latter is already known. What is CAUSING so much pain right now is corporate greed, and what ALLOWS that is primarily voting Democrat vs. Republican, with the heaviest voting block being evangelical Christian vs. not. A complicating factor is that baby boomers are somewhat insulated from the worst effects, plus their retirement savings are often tied up into the stock market that is what rich people want to succeed, plus they don’t do themselves much credit by being remarkably unsympathetic to the plight of how the younger generations are being sold into corporate near-slavery, plus on top of it all they do trend more towards voting conservative to begin with, etc. But e.g. a young Republican does far more harm than an old Democrat, i.e. age is one of the more minor correlating effects.

    An illustration may help: right now if a 10-year old girl is raped by her very own father and gets pregnant, the primary discriminator of whether she will live or is consigned to have a VERY good chance of dying (in agony) is whether she lives in an area that votes primarily Democratic or one that votes primarily Republican. This is the stuff that is literally life and death.

    Beyond that, the effects of inflation, the availability of jobs, whether the government of the state that you are in is bankrupt, and/or has any/no competent/sufficient firefighters/police/teachers/medical staff/etc. all correlate with Republican vs. Democrat. Look at COVID death rates to see which area is which, especially after the vaccine existed.

    In short, there are two different Americas right now, one being mostly third-world (except still has internet and TV and cars and stuff, but I still would not call it second-world when the child mortality rate is somewhere between Rwanda and Uganda, and has been about that level for decades) and the other first-world. And they are tearing at each other, one being never happy with the way things are and wanting to go still further back in time, floating such thoughts as whether women should still be allowed to vote, plus literally calling for a “national divorce” (with prejudice - i.e. a literal, murderous, bloody Civil War part 2), and the other also wanting basically not that. So similar to Brexit, we are basically ready for Amexit? Except from ourselves. Which will affect the entire fucking world b/c if Biden loses and Trump comes in again, what are the chances that this time he discovers that he can control nukes?

    Anyway, yes old people helped bring this about, but mostly by inaction and while I am not saying that mistakes were not made, I am saying that much of the media rhetoric about the generations being at each others’ throats is… if not entirely false, then at least mostly so. i.e., it is not old people attacking the younger ones, it is corporations attacking us all (but who would like it very much if we would simply pretend that they were not involved? thus they bought up all the media, and now good luck hearing a story that ever says that they are complicit in anything).

    _number8_ ,

    it’s genuinely bewildering seeing someone my age talk about a ‘career’…like…what dude? oh maybe if i work hard the guy will shake my hand and give me a raise? do you live in a norman rockwell painting?

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