Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x04 "Among the Lotus Eaters"

Written by Kirsten Beyer & Davy Perez

Directed by Eduardo Sanchez

LoglineReturning to a planet that dredges up tragic memories, Captain Pike and his landing party find themselves forgetting everything, including their own identities as he confronts a ghost from his past.

AuroraBorealis , (edited )
@AuroraBorealis@pawb.social avatar

It’s a common trope that the away teams really shouldn’t be landing in these planets without any idea what’s down there without an alien style hazmat suit and here we go, another example :) I GUESS they get a pass because they were here before and the effects didn’t happen because they were not here long enough

also really strange they don’t confirm that people were dead? Or try and go back and get their bodies which might have equipment/ com badges /might even be alien (Spock was there and he bleeds green), maybe starfleet shouldn’t be so careless about what they leave behind…

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

No EV suit would have protected them, either - the Enterprise was affected as well.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

They handled that subtly - I was wondering why they didn't raise shields against the radiation, but the shimmering impact of the debris field seen when Ortegas was in her quarters showed that shields were indeed up, so that mean the radiation could get through shields. Then it was mentioned that Spock tweaked the shield harmonics at the end - I guess he didn't earlier because he was already affected.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

I think at the time they lacked sufficient information to modulate the shields, which is why moving the ship into the astroids seemed logical.

khaosworks , (edited )
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

Annotations up at https://startrek.website/post/282663.

This was a very TOS episode yet in terms of feel.

The dialogue could easily have come from the mouths of the TOS cast, and the situation on the planet reminiscent of officers violating the Prime Directive like in TOS: “The Omega Glory” or “Bread and Circuses”. Even Mount's delivery when on the planet was Shatner-esque.

I can readily imagine Kirk, McCoy and a random redshirt or Chekov on the planet in Pike, M’Benga and La’An’s place, and Sulu pulling it together like Ortegas.

StillPaisleyCat , (edited )
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I agree that it has a genuine TOS feel.

Especially as it gets back to the mid 20th century thought experiments around how the mind functions, but informed my more current understanding of memory, cognitive function and emotion.

I wasn’t quite sure the balance of the scenes was what it could have been, but it was good to see all of the main cast having their moments. I was nonetheless frustrated that Number One was quickly sidelined once again.

Also I was uncomfortable with how far Pike was willing to go in his aggression in order to get information from Zack. I believe we’re supposed to feel that, but it did feel that it was pushed just that moment longer to drive home the point that Pike’s deep ethics are what keeps him in check, not his emotions. It also tracks with his anger and how he even used it to break the thrall of the Talosians in The Cage.

But overall, I liked it. It’s a deeper and more challenging episode than it may seem on the surface, first watch. I suspect it will be one that stands up over a longer horizon.

psychothumbs ,

I felt like they were trying to show Captain Pike as going a little far when beating up Zac, but I thought he was being totally reasonable given the situation of “this guy knows how to keep your memories and you really really need to force him to hand that information over.” There was no way for him to know all he had to do was wait around in the palace for a little while.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

It’s an interesting insight into Pike’s character - the fact that he had to remember not to beat the crap out of Zac implies that innately he’s not a pacifist or a nice guy; that dark side is something he’s learned to keep in check.

tdriley ,
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@psychothumbs @khaosworks That was interesting. His instincts work overpowering Zac in the phaser battle but then we don’t actually know if he’ll “remember” he can’t just beat him senseless afterwards. Maybe we’ll see some Pike backstory at some point that shows him learning ethical lessons when he’s younger.

FormerGameDev ,

hmm. This makes me wonder. Is there a way to link to a specific message thread, that is universal across instances?

If not, it seems like it’s a feature that is sorely needed.

lemillionsocks ,
@lemillionsocks@beehaw.org avatar

Yeah theres a sort of goofy way memory loss works and how it was still taken very seriously gave me a good old school trek vibe which I dug throughout the episode.

concrete_baby ,

Who voiced the computer? It sounds like Kate Mulgrew

tukarrs ,

listed as Alex Kapp www.imdb.com/name/nm0395088/

jimternet ,

Yeah I thought exactly the same!

concrete_baby ,

It’s good to see Kirsten Beyer back in the writer’s room. It could be her that this episode reminds me of Workforce from VOY where the away team forget about their identities and keep on working for the planet government.

I felt the pacing was a bit rushed at the end and the episode could have given more time to explore the Kalar man’s memories and history so his arch is more earned.

UESPA_Sputnik ,
@UESPA_Sputnik@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a bit undecided about this episode.

Stuff that I liked:

  • a strange new(-ish) world
  • everyone got something to do, unlike last week
  • once again some funny Spock moments
  • the visuals on this show are stunning once again. The planet looked nice, the external VFX in the debris field of two celestial bodies that orbited Rigel VII several centuries ago looked nice, the Enterprise interiors look so nice.

Stuff that I didn’t like:

  • I’m not a fan of forced relationship dramas. Plus, from the pilot episode I got the feeling that Pike and Batel (does she even have a first name yet?) are only friends with benefits, but now Batel storms off after Pike says he wants to take it easy? Weird.
  • how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you can’t remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.
  • the writing for Ortegas was weak. Her personal log at the beginning of the episode sounded like it was written by ChatGPT. And the stuff towards the end of the episode wasn’t great either. The actor did the best she could with what she was given but the writing really didn’t do her any favors.
exscape ,
@exscape@kbin.social avatar

how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you can’t remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.

The rulers in the palace could remember, though (because of the shielding provided by some metal). And the workers/slaves remembered enough to perform their tasks.

sammydee ,
@sammydee@universeodon.com avatar

@exscape @ValueSubtracted @UESPA_Sputnik Spoiler alert, please!

This is one of the earliest Sci-Fi themes. See: Nightfall by Asimov (1941).

I thought they covered it well in the ep. (Write things down, write things on YOURSELF, etc).

exscape ,
@exscape@kbin.social avatar

Hm, considering your instance name, are you reading this on Mastodon? I've not gotten the hang of how federation with Mastodon works, but I'm reading/writing this on Kbin, and the post is on Lemmy, in the discussion thread for the latest episode, where spoilers for that episode are assumed to exist without warning.
In any case I apologize if you were spoiled by my post, but I'm not sure how to improve things in the future TBH.

sammydee ,
@sammydee@universeodon.com avatar

@exscape @ValueSubtracted @UESPA_Sputnik Yes, I'm reading on Mastodon. Interesting, I may have to stop following the lemmy hashtag. Federation is a fun idea but apparently doesn't work quite right.

psychothumbs ,

Trying to avoid particular pieces of information is a tough problem for a federated network to solve.

Klanky ,
@Klanky@sopuli.xyz avatar

Just among the ‘field Kalar’, how are there relationships enough to maintain a population? Unless they’re just used to reading a piece of paper “this is my spouse, this is my child” and I guess the deep emotions they talked about as persisting fill in the rest. Still, I think it would be hard to build the relationships without those deep emotions in place. Sorta sounds like “50 First Date” (never saw it but the premise).

CeruleanRuin ,
@CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one avatar

Only the workers outside the castle lost their memories. The guards had helmets made of a material that protected them from the worst effects, and the palace shielded those inside.

The end result is a caste system, where you have people who remember and give orders and people who forget and have no choice but to follow.

MarceloTeson ,

I like the Pike/Batel relationship dynamic. I like that they’re both captains with their own responsibilities, which is new and different from what we’ve seen in previous iterations of Trek where one is an officer and the other is left at home or something. It doesn’t feel forced to me, although the question of weren’t they just FWB’s is an interesting one, I’d have to go back and look at the pilot. But I’m ok with buying that they’re closer than that but just can’t make it work because they both have ships to captain.

I would like to see more of her being a captain. Hopefully there’s an episode in the future where we get to see her on her bridge doing her thing.

UESPA_Sputnik ,
@UESPA_Sputnik@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, we had Ben Sisko and Kassidy Yates who both were captains. But I agree with you that Pike and Batel really seem to be equals, and I really like that relationship dynamic.

As I said, from the pilot episode I got the impression that they are friends with benefits who like to hook up when they happen to be in the same sector – no strings attached. (underlined by the fact that Pike had a fling with that lady from the child-killing planet) I think that could be an interesting relationship dynamic to explore because unlike Kirk who had a chick on every planet (with rather unequal dynamics), Pike and Batel both have found someone equal with all the limitations that the jobs brings with it.

I just hope the writing for Batel was an exception in this week’s episode because it didn’t make her look good – being overly emotional and storming off after Pike just stated some facts. I don’t think that’s the type of female character they should be aiming for nowadays.

eva_sieve ,

I’m also in the camp that liked it, Pike since his reintroduction in Disco S2 has been one of the franchises’ most emotionally open captains. Most of the time we see this as this self-assured dad energy he uses when talking to his subordinates, but I think it was good to see how he can be vulnerable but still that genuine, emotionally mature guy with someone who’s on the same level as him.

BorgDrone ,

Was the high pitched ringing sound really necessary, especially for that long each time? That almost physically hurt and it scared the fsck out of my cat.

sammydee ,
@sammydee@universeodon.com avatar

@BorgDrone @ValueSubtracted As a person with tinnitus, it seemed important to me. Let me know exactly what was going on. It's also very common in video games, for example when someone is dazed by a nearby explosion. Again it conveyed a lot of meaning to me and helped explain what they were going through.

BorgDrone ,

Sure, but there is a difference between having that sound at low volume for 2 seconds and blasting it through all 10 speakers for 20.

CeruleanRuin ,
@CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one avatar

Ooh, look at this guy with ten speakers! Fancy pants over here! : P

williams_482 ,
@williams_482@startrek.website avatar

It seemed a perfectly harmless and appropriate volume to me listening on headphones. Perhaps your bass needs adjustment.

BorgDrone ,

It’s not the bass that was the problem, it was the high pitched sounds.

CeeBee ,

It seemed a perfectly harmless

As someone with tinnitus, it not only hurt, but triggered my tinnitus to be worse for the rest of the day.

Far from harmless. I had a proper issue with the excessive ringing in this episode.

williams_482 ,
@williams_482@startrek.website avatar

Well that definitely sucks. Sorry you had to deal with that.

psychothumbs ,

Haha I kept worrying that my cats and baby would be disturbed by it but fortunately they didn’t seem to react much.

autojourno ,

Yeah. I watched with a loved one who needs hearing aids, and I can vouch that that exact pitch plays havoc with high-tech hearing aids and apparently results in actual physical pain. We finished the episode with the sound way down, reading the captions to understand it. It’s fine for 99% of people but I would have appreciated a warning for the 1% that experienced actual pain from that.

cyberic ,
@cyberic@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I wrote this as I was watching:

  • Since when have Batel and Pike have a history? Was she in season 1?
  • I wish they had a tone warning at the beginning of the episode, also I thought the tones went for a little too long each time.
  • Lol this is the anti-Spock world. “Your emotions are your truth.” Maybe Spock should have been on the planet surface as well.
  • Did Spock forget how to read?
  • Did the Enterprise not feel the effects in the previous mission? Did they forget to record it or make personal logs?
cyberic ,
@cyberic@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I rewatched the beginning and around 10:17 Spock mentioned that the collision was hundreds of years ago, so they should have felt the effects on the previous mission. Then in the shuttle they mention that the meteor was already there for thousands of years… So I’m just more confused why the memory effects weren’t there before.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

They said in the episode that the original mission had been so short (4 hours if I recall correctly), Pike’s crew had not felt the effects.

CeruleanRuin ,
@CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one avatar

Yup, they basically touched down, immediately encountered some nasty violent opposition, and cut their losses and left bleeding. It was bad enough to make Pike question his fitness as a leader.

Jon-H558 , (edited )

They were in and out in four hours was mentioned deliberately I feel , and then the trekking for 6hours before laan started it all

18+ sammydee ,
@sammydee@universeodon.com avatar

@cyberic @ValueSubtracted She was in S1E1, scene 1. She was trying to get him to leave his cabin and get back to work.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

She was in “A Quality of Mercy” as well.

FormerGameDev ,

If I remember correctly, the very first scene of S1E1 was Batel waking up in Pike’s bed, so… yeah :D

Randy_Bobandy ,
@Randy_Bobandy@lemmy.ml avatar

For the last one: Spock stated that the previous mission they hadn’t stayed as long as they were when the effects started happening.

GordonShumway ,

Your 2nd point is valid for Tinnitus sufferers like myself I think. I found the early moments of the episode quite uncomfortable as a result of hearing that tone amongst the already present tones in my real world!

regeya ,

Good Lord they established that Pike and Batel have a relationship in the first episode.

williams_482 ,
@williams_482@startrek.website avatar

The first scene of the first episode, even.

khan_shot_1st ,

I think he forgot how to read English. I suspect had he remembered how to switch his padd to a Vulcan script, he would have been able to read that. Maybe.

deepthaw ,

Did Spock forget how to read?

Maybe it’s a nod to Discovery establishing he had a learning disability similar to dyslexia.

autojourno ,

If I remember right, she’s in the very first scene of SNW. A bearded Pike in Alaska riding a horse to a cabin where they’re staying together. She’s gently needling him about whether he should go back to a command. I think she’s about to leave to go back to her ship after a vacation together. Something like that.

ieightpi ,

Definitely felt like classic trek this week. Fun episode. I was really hoping we would get a more in depth episode for Ortegas’ character. I did read something last year that she was getting her own episode, so im going to assume this wasn’t it.

CeruleanRuin ,
@CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one avatar

I did let out a big guffaw when I realized their bait and switch. Started it out like it was going to be an Ortegas focused episode, and then Spock comes in and pops hers and everyone else’s bubble with his Vulcan science. Loved how she put the hat back on as she was walking away, as if to say “I’m gonna wear this for a while longer because I can, dammit.”

rother_stuebs ,
@rother_stuebs@mastodon.online avatar

@ieightpi
She didn't get her own episode but at least a cool hat.😉

@ValueSubtracted

Mezentine ,

That’s probably one of my favorite episodes of the series as a viewing experience, it was pretty entertaining. I don’t think I quite track…the message, though? In the span of about three minutes we get explicitly told that for Pike and Ortegas the memory loss could be revealing experience that identified the core of the self, while for their friend on the planet it was an obscuring experience that robbed him of things he didn’t know were important. You can explain away the difference with plot logic pretty easily, but thematically it’s a bit weird to juxtapose them right next to each other

psychothumbs ,

I think it makes sense that a brief bout of amnesia like that could be revealing of your underlying traits and feelings, but that in the normal course of things it’s very important to have your memories.

flamingmongoose ,

Enjoyed this very much, the tone was very creepy. Reminded me of the psychological horror episodes only TNG really did.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I would link it back to psychological mystery of The Cage and further to its touchstone, the MGM 50s classic Forbidden Planet.

regeya ,

Rigel 7 is literally a callback to The Cage

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Yes, it’s a direct plot reference to the backstory for The Cage.

I was responding to the comment that it’s like TNG psychological episodes, when I see it as in the tradition of Forbidden Planet where an unknown technology or phenomenon is changing brain function so that subconscious or deep behaviours are revealed.

UhBell ,
@UhBell@lemmy.world avatar

Damn I love this show. I can’t help but wonder if Hemmer would have been affected differently by the radiation if he wasn’t a gorn egg popsicle.

UESPA_Sputnik ,
@UESPA_Sputnik@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t Spock usually the one to be immune? But he was affected to, so was Una. It’s likely that Hemmer would have been affected as well (for plot reasons anyway).

G59 ,

I almost thought Una’s super healing ability would make her immune/resistant to the radiation damage.

rother_stuebs ,
@rother_stuebs@mastodon.online avatar

@UESPA_Sputnik
Sounds like Troi's telepathic abilities always being mysteriously blocked when the story demands it.

@UhBell

FormerGameDev ,

Outside of Pike and Batel’s relationship, are there any points in this episode that look to connect to anything else in the currently ongoing plotline in SNW? I didn’t really notice anything, it seems like this might be the most standalone episode.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

Batel’s promotion was nixed by Judge Advocate Pasalk because of her conduct during Una’s trial in “Ad Astra Per Aspera”.

M’Benga mentions that the reason he and La’An were along was because Pike needed people who could fight without phasers (as per “The Broken Circle” and “Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow”).

That’s basically it, I think.

deepthaw ,

M’Benga

You mean “Dr. Seen-Some-Shit.”

Disgustoid ,

I don’t know if we’ll ever see a full episode with flashbacks to everything he’s been through, but oddly enough I don’t mind the intentionally vague references to it so far–leaves it open for our imaginations (and fan fiction) to fill in the gaps.

1Fuji2Taka3Nasubi ,
  • Still somewhat annoyed that there is no seat belt on the shuttle, even if it is to maintain continuity with TOS. M'Benga looked like he was going to bang his head and get a concussion when they were landing.
  • La'an: They won't see us coming.
    Zac: We totally saw you from the other side of the planet a hemisphere away.
  • What was Zac trying to accomplish? He lured them there with the Starfleet Delta, but he was not going to hitch a ride home. He expected whatever ship that comes to inspect to... forget and go away, or suffer some disastrous result when the crew become unable to function? Why not just stay low and be king if he wasn't planning to leave?
Basilisk ,

It wasn’t intentional. The Starfleet Delta was something Zac’s followers had done to honour him, it wasn’t intended as a lure.

khaosworks , (edited )
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

Zac didn’t intend for Starfleet to notice the delta. He was content to just stay on Rigel VII as High Lord Zacarias, thinking that Starfleet would never return to the planet because of the debris field and the radiation. But then the Kalar used the delta as a symbol and it got spotted.

PIKE: Zac. We saw your message, the, um… the Delta in the garden. It’s why we came. Isn’t that why you did it?

ZAC: The people here adopted it as my symbol. I should have known better. It’s all getting torn out tomorrow.

1Fuji2Taka3Nasubi ,

Thanks. I tried to watch with subtitles off and predictably missed some of the conversation.

Klanky ,
@Klanky@sopuli.xyz avatar

Was it just me, or did anyone hear bits and pieces of the score from Rura Penthe while Pike and co were breaking rocks out in the snow?

Continuumguy ,

Thoughts as I watch:

  • So, I’m wondering: is Cayuga a reference to Rod Serling? He named his production company that in reference to the lake in New York.
  • Relationships suck when you are a Starfleet captain who knows your destiny to one day be in a beepie chair.
  • Rigel 7, a deep cut!
  • We have gone (ZERO) days without some sort of Starfleet prime directive problem.
  • Finally, some Ortegas action!
  • “THE HAT IS SUPREME.” I’m going to have to use that in conversation.
  • Oh man, at least she keeps the hat.
  • “Subdermal universal translators” are the new translation microbes
  • Oh boy, they have starfleet tech.
  • Ah, we’ve got a good old-fashioned “Federation citizen takes over a world” episode!
  • “This is a cage.” Heh.
  • Forgetting is a scary side effect for a planet.
  • I get that they were only on there for like four hours, but shouldn’t they have noticed stuff like this their last visit? Or maybe… THEY LOST
  • “Welcome to Memento/50 First Dates Planet”
  • Can still remember how to fight!
  • So I’m guessing Spock is probably one of the more resistant to all of this due to his Vulcan-ness.
  • Man, La’An is having a REALLY bad pair of weeks.
  • Captain Pike even without his memories is still Captain Pike. Makes sense.
  • Okay, I guess Spock isn’t immune.
  • Glad to see the Connie class had GPS.
  • I gotta admit, I feel like Pelia would be good in this episode given just how many memories she has to lose and how many skills she has.
  • SHE FLIES THE SHIP
  • The ship’s computer is great this week.
  • Damn, that is some tough silverware, standing up to phaser blasts.
  • Is it just me or is that a fresco or whatever of Alexander the Great… Zac-ized?
  • Okay, that logic doesn’t quite seem sound, but whatever.
  • So, uhm, be careful about telling her about the Beepy-chair, Chris.
FormerGameDev ,

I thought it was Cuyahoga? correct me if i’m wrong pls

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

It’s Cayuga, as per the closed captioning, and it’s likely no coincidence. As I noted in my annotations, the Cayuga first appeared in “A Quality of Mercy”, which shares a title with a 1961 Twilight Zone episode starring Leonard Nimoy. And TZ was produced by Serling’s production company, Cayuga Productions.

FormerGameDev ,

Thank you!

williams_482 ,
@williams_482@startrek.website avatar

shares a title with a 1961 Twilight Zone episode starring Leonard Nimoy.

For better or worse, I’m not sure “starring” is quite the right description. Nimoy has like three lines and a couple minutes of screen time. I found it rather jarring to recognize Nimoy early in the episode and then see so little of him after.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

Featuring, perhaps.

Continuumguy ,

Yes, I noticed that in your annotations over at… the other place. Interestingly enough, Roddenberry spoke at a memorial for Serling in 1975

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

I post them as a stand-alone in c/DaystromInstitute every week now.

UESPA_Sputnik ,
@UESPA_Sputnik@lemmy.world avatar

“This is a cage.” Heh.

I hope that one day Captain Pike visits a zoo and says “this is a menagerie”.

autojourno ,

The platter cracked me up.

Ensign — “captain…sir…this directive says all away teams will be issued a Pfaltzgraff serving set for protection?”

Pike — “trust me on that one.”

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