Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x04 "Among the Lotus Eaters"

sarcasticsunrise , 11 months ago

Nothing to add pertaining to this last FANTASTIC episode; I really just wanted to say I appreciate everyone posting here. After Reddit, I thought these kind of threads were done for, but here we are. So even if no one reads this, thank you and much love 🙏

Disgustoid , 11 months ago

Wow, these SNW writers really bring it each week, don’t they? Not to say every episode is perfect but I’ve found every single one to be very entertaining and exactly what I want out of Star Trek in 2023. The combination of standalone stories mixed with underlying character development and arcs is perfect.

As for this week, the idea of encountering a planet that could make you forget everything was weirdly creepy, if not a bit implausible. Even if this wasn’t her showcase episode, I grinned at Ortega’s “I AM THE PILOT!” moment. Also enjoyed the away team being out of sorts on the planet which I thought was well done and not an action overdose like the season opener.

Schal330 , 11 months ago

Wow, these SNW writers really bring it each week, don’t they?

Don’t they just! Genuinely excited whenever I fire up the episodes and watch the intro everytime (love the intro music!)

Disgustoid , 11 months ago

I know the feeling! SNW’s theme and opening credits definitely bring back memories of eagerly looking forward to TNG every week. It’s easily my favorite Trek theme since TNG.

theothersparrow , 11 months ago

SNW really is a masterclass in balancing episodic and narrative storytelling.

I’d love to attend a workshop/lecture with Goldsman, Myers, et al.

khaosworks , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

Annotations up at https://startrek.website/post/282663.

This was a very TOS episode yet in terms of feel.

The dialogue could easily have come from the mouths of the TOS cast, and the situation on the planet reminiscent of officers violating the Prime Directive like in TOS: “The Omega Glory” or “Bread and Circuses”. Even Mount's delivery when on the planet was Shatner-esque.

I can readily imagine Kirk, McCoy and a random redshirt or Chekov on the planet in Pike, M’Benga and La’An’s place, and Sulu pulling it together like Ortegas.

StillPaisleyCat , 11 months ago (edited 11 months ago)

I agree that it has a genuine TOS feel.

Especially as it gets back to the mid 20th century thought experiments around how the mind functions, but informed my more current understanding of memory, cognitive function and emotion.

I wasn’t quite sure the balance of the scenes was what it could have been, but it was good to see all of the main cast having their moments. I was nonetheless frustrated that Number One was quickly sidelined once again.

Also I was uncomfortable with how far Pike was willing to go in his aggression in order to get information from Zack. I believe we’re supposed to feel that, but it did feel that it was pushed just that moment longer to drive home the point that Pike’s deep ethics are what keeps him in check, not his emotions. It also tracks with his anger and how he even used it to break the thrall of the Talosians in The Cage.

But overall, I liked it. It’s a deeper and more challenging episode than it may seem on the surface, first watch. I suspect it will be one that stands up over a longer horizon.

psychothumbs , 11 months ago

I felt like they were trying to show Captain Pike as going a little far when beating up Zac, but I thought he was being totally reasonable given the situation of “this guy knows how to keep your memories and you really really need to force him to hand that information over.” There was no way for him to know all he had to do was wait around in the palace for a little while.

khaosworks , 11 months ago

It’s an interesting insight into Pike’s character - the fact that he had to remember not to beat the crap out of Zac implies that innately he’s not a pacifist or a nice guy; that dark side is something he’s learned to keep in check.

tdriley , 11 months ago

@psychothumbs @khaosworks That was interesting. His instincts work overpowering Zac in the phaser battle but then we don’t actually know if he’ll “remember” he can’t just beat him senseless afterwards. Maybe we’ll see some Pike backstory at some point that shows him learning ethical lessons when he’s younger.

FormerGameDev , 11 months ago

hmm. This makes me wonder. Is there a way to link to a specific message thread, that is universal across instances?

If not, it seems like it’s a feature that is sorely needed.

lemillionsocks , 11 months ago

Yeah theres a sort of goofy way memory loss works and how it was still taken very seriously gave me a good old school trek vibe which I dug throughout the episode.

IcePenguino , 11 months ago

Memory loss is one of the scariest things in the known universe. This is a horror episode to me.

deepthaw , 11 months ago

Similar to how we refer to TOS episodes as “The Nazi Planet” and “The Gangster Planet” this one will be “The Alzheimer’s Planet.”

BorgDrone , 11 months ago

Was the high pitched ringing sound really necessary, especially for that long each time? That almost physically hurt and it scared the fsck out of my cat.

sammydee , 11 months ago

@BorgDrone @ValueSubtracted As a person with tinnitus, it seemed important to me. Let me know exactly what was going on. It's also very common in video games, for example when someone is dazed by a nearby explosion. Again it conveyed a lot of meaning to me and helped explain what they were going through.

BorgDrone , 11 months ago

Sure, but there is a difference between having that sound at low volume for 2 seconds and blasting it through all 10 speakers for 20.

CeruleanRuin , 11 months ago

Ooh, look at this guy with ten speakers! Fancy pants over here! : P

williams_482 , 11 months ago

It seemed a perfectly harmless and appropriate volume to me listening on headphones. Perhaps your bass needs adjustment.

BorgDrone , 11 months ago

It’s not the bass that was the problem, it was the high pitched sounds.

CeeBee , 11 months ago

It seemed a perfectly harmless

As someone with tinnitus, it not only hurt, but triggered my tinnitus to be worse for the rest of the day.

Far from harmless. I had a proper issue with the excessive ringing in this episode.

williams_482 , 11 months ago

Well that definitely sucks. Sorry you had to deal with that.

psychothumbs , 11 months ago

Haha I kept worrying that my cats and baby would be disturbed by it but fortunately they didn’t seem to react much.

autojourno , 11 months ago

Yeah. I watched with a loved one who needs hearing aids, and I can vouch that that exact pitch plays havoc with high-tech hearing aids and apparently results in actual physical pain. We finished the episode with the sound way down, reading the captions to understand it. It’s fine for 99% of people but I would have appreciated a warning for the 1% that experienced actual pain from that.

ieightpi , 11 months ago

Definitely felt like classic trek this week. Fun episode. I was really hoping we would get a more in depth episode for Ortegas’ character. I did read something last year that she was getting her own episode, so im going to assume this wasn’t it.

CeruleanRuin , 11 months ago

I did let out a big guffaw when I realized their bait and switch. Started it out like it was going to be an Ortegas focused episode, and then Spock comes in and pops hers and everyone else’s bubble with his Vulcan science. Loved how she put the hat back on as she was walking away, as if to say “I’m gonna wear this for a while longer because I can, dammit.”

rother_stuebs , 11 months ago

@ieightpi
She didn't get her own episode but at least a cool hat.😉

@ValueSubtracted

deepthaw , 11 months ago

This episode should have started in media res, with the away team already on planet and having lost their memories. Once we got the explainer as to what was happening, then we could return to the Enterprise to show the growing crisis there, and finally wrap everything up as the episode already did.

IonAddis , 11 months ago

Yeah, the more I think about it, I think you’re right. It’s possible they didn’t because they wanted to bookend it with stuff about the pilot.

The episode as well was a decent one-episode-and-done thing, with a few threads they left open to explore later. But I agree that if they’d begun with the memory loss and cages, and worked backwards from there, it would have been “cooler” and more emotionally effective.

The episode wasn’t a bad one. It wasn’t a great one. It was solid. Given how many fans have said they want Trek like this, it’s probably serviceable and “good enough” for the season.

I’m looking forward to some cooler episodes, though. The first 3 spoiled me, I liked them a lot.

bobfett , 11 months ago

No.... I juste have a hate for most of the Trek episodes starting with a catastrophic situation and a blackout with a "XX hours ago..." captions...

Top easy writing.... At least, they build the tension here

Voyager763 , 11 months ago

I couldn’t agree more. It feels like lazy storytelling, and I actually appreciated this episode for not resorting to that kind of fakery. It’s setup was strong enough to be its own thing. I respect that a lot.

Continuumguy , 11 months ago

Thoughts as I watch:

• So, I’m wondering: is Cayuga a reference to Rod Serling? He named his production company that in reference to the lake in New York.
• Relationships suck when you are a Starfleet captain who knows your destiny to one day be in a beepie chair.
• Rigel 7, a deep cut!
• We have gone (ZERO) days without some sort of Starfleet prime directive problem.
• Finally, some Ortegas action!
• “THE HAT IS SUPREME.” I’m going to have to use that in conversation.
• Oh man, at least she keeps the hat.
• “Subdermal universal translators” are the new translation microbes
• Oh boy, they have starfleet tech.
• Ah, we’ve got a good old-fashioned “Federation citizen takes over a world” episode!
• “This is a cage.” Heh.
• Forgetting is a scary side effect for a planet.
• I get that they were only on there for like four hours, but shouldn’t they have noticed stuff like this their last visit? Or maybe… THEY LOST
• “Welcome to Memento/50 First Dates Planet”
• Can still remember how to fight!
• So I’m guessing Spock is probably one of the more resistant to all of this due to his Vulcan-ness.
• Man, La’An is having a REALLY bad pair of weeks.
• Captain Pike even without his memories is still Captain Pike. Makes sense.
• Okay, I guess Spock isn’t immune.
• Glad to see the Connie class had GPS.
• I gotta admit, I feel like Pelia would be good in this episode given just how many memories she has to lose and how many skills she has.
• SHE FLIES THE SHIP
• The ship’s computer is great this week.
• Damn, that is some tough silverware, standing up to phaser blasts.
• Is it just me or is that a fresco or whatever of Alexander the Great… Zac-ized?
• Okay, that logic doesn’t quite seem sound, but whatever.
• So, uhm, be careful about telling her about the Beepy-chair, Chris.

FormerGameDev , 11 months ago

I thought it was Cuyahoga? correct me if i’m wrong pls

khaosworks , 11 months ago

It’s Cayuga, as per the closed captioning, and it’s likely no coincidence. As I noted in my annotations, the Cayuga first appeared in “A Quality of Mercy”, which shares a title with a 1961 Twilight Zone episode starring Leonard Nimoy. And TZ was produced by Serling’s production company, Cayuga Productions.

FormerGameDev , 11 months ago

Thank you!

williams_482 , 11 months ago

shares a title with a 1961 Twilight Zone episode starring Leonard Nimoy.

For better or worse, I’m not sure “starring” is quite the right description. Nimoy has like three lines and a couple minutes of screen time. I found it rather jarring to recognize Nimoy early in the episode and then see so little of him after.

khaosworks , 11 months ago

Featuring, perhaps.

Continuumguy , 11 months ago

Yes, I noticed that in your annotations over at… the other place. Interestingly enough, Roddenberry spoke at a memorial for Serling in 1975

khaosworks , 11 months ago

I post them as a stand-alone in c/DaystromInstitute every week now.

UESPA_Sputnik , 11 months ago

“This is a cage.” Heh.

I hope that one day Captain Pike visits a zoo and says “this is a menagerie”.

autojourno , 11 months ago

The platter cracked me up.

Ensign — “captain…sir…this directive says all away teams will be issued a Pfaltzgraff serving set for protection?”

Pike — “trust me on that one.”

theinspectorst , 11 months ago

At the start of the episode, when Ortegas was getting ready for the away mission, I thought this episode would have the scene from the start of the season 2 trailer where she (gleefully) pilots a shuttle down to a planet.

At least we know she will eventually get to go on an away mission!

TeaHands , 11 months ago

Really enjoyed this episode, it didn’t make the most sense at times but made up for it with an extremely disturbing core concept. And there is comfort in the idea that even without a significant portion of our memories, we’re still “us”.

I’m confused about one thing though and maybe I just missed something so someone can enlighten me. If the palace is so well-protected that just literally being inside it for ten minutes is enough to completely reverse the memory loss, why was Pike first affected by it while standing in the palace? Is it just that they weren’t in there for very long during their first encounter with Zac, and the symptoms caught up with him, or did I miss something about how that worked?

Argonne , 11 months ago

Yeah this episode didn’t make much sense. Outside of the disturbing concept and well directed drama, this episode felt pretty weak

TeaHands , 11 months ago

It didn’t really bother me, still thought it was a very good episode, but I am glad it’s not just me being stupid!

G59 , 11 months ago

Can the writers stop making La’an suffer? she can’t catch a break lol

Disgustoid , 11 months ago

Miles O’Brien: “First time?”

GummySquirrel , 11 months ago

I’ve been waiting for the crew explore a new planet. Hoping there’s more of these episodes than less

UESPA_Sputnik , 11 months ago

I’m a bit undecided about this episode.

Stuff that I liked:

• a strange new(-ish) world
• everyone got something to do, unlike last week
• once again some funny Spock moments
• the visuals on this show are stunning once again. The planet looked nice, the external VFX in the debris field of two celestial bodies that orbited Rigel VII several centuries ago looked nice, the Enterprise interiors look so nice.

Stuff that I didn’t like:

• I’m not a fan of forced relationship dramas. Plus, from the pilot episode I got the feeling that Pike and Batel (does she even have a first name yet?) are only friends with benefits, but now Batel storms off after Pike says he wants to take it easy? Weird.
• how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you can’t remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.
• the writing for Ortegas was weak. Her personal log at the beginning of the episode sounded like it was written by ChatGPT. And the stuff towards the end of the episode wasn’t great either. The actor did the best she could with what she was given but the writing really didn’t do her any favors.

exscape , 11 months ago

how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you can’t remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.

The rulers in the palace could remember, though (because of the shielding provided by some metal). And the workers/slaves remembered enough to perform their tasks.

sammydee , 11 months ago

@exscape @ValueSubtracted @UESPA_Sputnik Spoiler alert, please!

This is one of the earliest Sci-Fi themes. See: Nightfall by Asimov (1941).

I thought they covered it well in the ep. (Write things down, write things on YOURSELF, etc).

exscape , 11 months ago

Hm, considering your instance name, are you reading this on Mastodon? I've not gotten the hang of how federation with Mastodon works, but I'm reading/writing this on Kbin, and the post is on Lemmy, in the discussion thread for the latest episode, where spoilers for that episode are assumed to exist without warning.
In any case I apologize if you were spoiled by my post, but I'm not sure how to improve things in the future TBH.

sammydee , 11 months ago

@exscape @ValueSubtracted @UESPA_Sputnik Yes, I'm reading on Mastodon. Interesting, I may have to stop following the lemmy hashtag. Federation is a fun idea but apparently doesn't work quite right.

psychothumbs , 11 months ago

Trying to avoid particular pieces of information is a tough problem for a federated network to solve.

Klanky , 11 months ago

Just among the ‘field Kalar’, how are there relationships enough to maintain a population? Unless they’re just used to reading a piece of paper “this is my spouse, this is my child” and I guess the deep emotions they talked about as persisting fill in the rest. Still, I think it would be hard to build the relationships without those deep emotions in place. Sorta sounds like “50 First Date” (never saw it but the premise).

CeruleanRuin , 11 months ago

Only the workers outside the castle lost their memories. The guards had helmets made of a material that protected them from the worst effects, and the palace shielded those inside.

The end result is a caste system, where you have people who remember and give orders and people who forget and have no choice but to follow.

MarceloTeson , 11 months ago

I like the Pike/Batel relationship dynamic. I like that they’re both captains with their own responsibilities, which is new and different from what we’ve seen in previous iterations of Trek where one is an officer and the other is left at home or something. It doesn’t feel forced to me, although the question of weren’t they just FWB’s is an interesting one, I’d have to go back and look at the pilot. But I’m ok with buying that they’re closer than that but just can’t make it work because they both have ships to captain.

I would like to see more of her being a captain. Hopefully there’s an episode in the future where we get to see her on her bridge doing her thing.

UESPA_Sputnik , 11 months ago

I mean, we had Ben Sisko and Kassidy Yates who both were captains. But I agree with you that Pike and Batel really seem to be equals, and I really like that relationship dynamic.

As I said, from the pilot episode I got the impression that they are friends with benefits who like to hook up when they happen to be in the same sector – no strings attached. (underlined by the fact that Pike had a fling with that lady from the child-killing planet) I think that could be an interesting relationship dynamic to explore because unlike Kirk who had a chick on every planet (with rather unequal dynamics), Pike and Batel both have found someone equal with all the limitations that the jobs brings with it.

I just hope the writing for Batel was an exception in this week’s episode because it didn’t make her look good – being overly emotional and storming off after Pike just stated some facts. I don’t think that’s the type of female character they should be aiming for nowadays.

eva_sieve , 11 months ago

I’m also in the camp that liked it, Pike since his reintroduction in Disco S2 has been one of the franchises’ most emotionally open captains. Most of the time we see this as this self-assured dad energy he uses when talking to his subordinates, but I think it was good to see how he can be vulnerable but still that genuine, emotionally mature guy with someone who’s on the same level as him.

gibberish_driftwood , 11 months ago

I’ve only managed to see this episode once, but something I didn’t understand was Spock’s decision to try and hide in the debris field. At this point they believed the planet was the source of the problem, but it seemed mostly a guess that the debris field might shield them.

Wouldn’t the most logical action have been to get as far away from the planet as reasonably possible until the effects appeared to subside? I know Una made a point that they had crew down there, but it’s not as if they can’t return more cautiously and with a clearer understanding of what’s happening. You’re also helpless to help your landing party if you’re completely incapacitated yourself.

Have I missed something important?

apprehensively_human , 11 months ago

I kept yelling at my TV. Leave orbit! Get out and regroup!

TeaHands , 11 months ago

That’s what I expected them to do as well, but I’m no science officer.

theothersparrow , 11 months ago

My headcanon is that the radiation had already begun affecting his decision-making.

It’s a stretch, I know.

StillPaisleyCat , 11 months ago

I don’t think it’s a bad headcanon.

We do know that the first landing went wildly wrong quickly. It’s possible that the judgement and short term memories of Pike and Spock of that landing were affected by more than trauma and shock.

There was individual variation in how rapidly the effects presented. We saw that La’an experienced some early tinnitus shortly after the shuttle landed.

On the ship, Spock wasn’t necessarily correct in his inference given he was already experiencing some cognitive impairment by that point.

FelipeFelop , 11 months ago

They could have retreated, sent shuttles on short duration missions to locate the crew but that would not have made a very interesting story.

In universe, I think they were all already affected at that point and showed poor judgement.

crazycanadianloon , 11 months ago

I think it’s not just because Una pointed out there was crew down there but specifically told Spock they had to (should) stay close. He took it literally as a command whereas he really should have evaluated it for himself.

autojourno , 11 months ago

He recommended to the First Officer that they retreat from the planet and she gave him an order not to do that. She went to sick bay after but I don’t think command was formally transferred to him.

So he looked for an alternative that would keep them safe while still executing a superior officer’s instructions, and he got it wrong by misunderstanding compounds in the debris that he’d never encountered before. If he’d been right about the debris it would have been a genius move. As it was, he followed orders and looked for non-suicidal way to do that.

crazycanadianloon , 11 months ago

Ok, at the risk of sounding like a filthy casual, it’s only now when I’m digging into Memory Alpha that I realized we’re finally getting visualization of what Pike was so miserable about in TOS the Cage. I was like, why does Rigel VII sound so familiar…

This is the kind of retcon I live for!!

TeaHands , 11 months ago

I’ve been watching Trek since I was basically a baby but don’t have anywhere near the depth of knowledge of most people posting here. We are still valid!

deepthaw , 11 months ago

I like that the original away mission failing wasn’t some weird magical thing - it was just a mission that went bad in a fairly mundane way.