Maybe it’s because I live in a rural area, but no guy I know seems interested/comfortable with any kind of emotionally deep relationship with another guy. Definitely not throwing shade there, I feel the same way and completely unprepared on how to speak with anyone other than my wife emotionally.
The more seemingly well adjusted guys are all family guys with kids, so they basically have no time to do anything that doesn’t involve the kids.
The ones without kids and the guys that never married or divorced all got into solitary hobbies like hunting or fishing. I like to trail run, so it’s basically the same with me. I feel like it’s basically impossible to make friends with another guy and I do try to!
Something I talk to a therapist about but otherwise have little idea what to do with is the fact that I literally have no actual guy friends, just coworkers and a few old college buddies that live hours away, so we only get together about one a year. I feel like the article was pretty good and it is very interesting that a trans man was able to capture the feeling so well.
It’s definitely cultural as well. I’m European and never struggled to make guy friends. I moved to New Zealand which is very British, and I really struggle here. My guy friends are other immigrants from Europe or South America. However, 80 percent of my friends are female. I love them but at times I definitely do miss having more dudes to hang out with.
Kiwi blokes are super quiet and steer away from serious conversation. It’s really hard here.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I’m a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men’s issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
I’m crossing my fingers that you’ll get a reply, and not as a PM. I’m bursting with curiosity but such things are so very difficult to even have opportunity to be enlightened.
For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they’re high-stakes. That’s not to say that I don’t feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don’t feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
I thought on this one for a while and couldn’t come up with a strong response that doesn’t just parrot the talking points of this community.
I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
Before transitioning I didn’t understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It’s often frustrating to see people rag on men’s or women’s behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.
I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it’s all men, versus when there’s a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don’t feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you’re in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.
To be clear, clarity of mind is my own personal experience and it’s unclear if T affected me that way because that’s what it’s like for everyone or if it can be attributed to dysphoria. In other words, it’s possible that I didn’t feel right in my body so I couldn’t focus on the things around me.
Bear in mind that Estrogen levels drop during menopause so you’ll find out one day. :)
On your last point. Guys only get to be guys when around other guys, exclusively.
Lots of women act like men aren’t right or they aren’t good enough when they actual normal and do normal guy shit.
Guys wants to call each other a cunt and rip into each other and tell funny stories, it’s how they bond and trust each other. Girls don’t like that and think guys should stop it. Either the guys act normal to them and it goes to HR or they act normal to each other and the girl is pissed off she is treated differently and goes to HR. The only thing to do is to act completely professionally.
Boys are just built different and I don’t think it’s fair that women always tell us and actual children how they should and shouldn’t act in a way that is against their nature.
Guys are in dire need of male only spaces where they can shoot the shit. I only really had it in sports clubs or as a child, or luckily in some work environments. But work isn’t the same as outside so that’s sucks. Wish my knee wasn’t fucked.
If you yearn for a male only space, check out the Freemasons. There’s something there for everyone, and it’s a great way to make friends later in life.
I did not find that people take me more seriously at work as a man. However, I work in tech and all companies I have worked are focused on ensuring that women have an equal place at the table. I imagine that other fields yield different results. – I did want to note that I had the opposite experience with healthcare. As a woman, doctors were less likely to take me seriously. As a man, they take anything I say to be the truth and trust me to make decisions.
Disadvantages of being male are:
People are more reluctant to help you with anything and everything, as if he’s a man, so he’s got it.
Harder to date and socialize. It’s downright isolating at times.
Strangers are less likely to trust you.
There are fewer social programs to help men in need. I was homeless for a spell and there were no shelters for men, for example.
It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
Strangers are more likely to be violent towards men.
Must be careful around women so they don’t think I am a danger. For example, if walking at night and a woman is coming from the opposite direction I feel obligated to cross the street so they don’t think I’m going to attack or harass them.
FWIW, I hire in Tech, and our percentage of female applicants is incredibly low, usually under 1%. I do pay extra attention to their resumes, but often they aren’t even close to qualified for the position.
It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
I’ve worked at woke companies who fought tooth and nail to say that they didn’t give women special preference in interviews. You can’t deny statistics, though. If you have 40% women engineers but only 10% of applicants are women then of course it’s easier.
Way too easy to say it like that. It really is a double edged sword situation. Over all, woman get way more harassed. This comes from a guy that says being a woman is better for like 15 years, than got a SO that grts harassed a lot.
Like even friends (not friends anymore) will grope or only do nice things cause they just wanna F her.
Not what I meant, I mean small things like before when I was socially awkward, people thought I was some kind of creeper… Now people just think I’m cute.
well, women also get more attention therefor they are less lonely. Just look at dating apps: women get flooded with likes and messages, but men… good luck getting a like and if you get one, good luck getting a conversation where you are not the only one putting some effort.
Homie, this is quite a bad take particularly in the face of the article in question. One of the biggest things the author was talking about wasn’t quantity of relationships, but quality of relationships. Having first conversations with 50 odd men is not going to produce a quality relationship in which you can talk about significant worries in life, or work through feelings that are causing distress.
but they dont get messages from only 50 year old men, do they? they get messages from a full spectrum of men. The only thing left to do is to choose. When you get to choose and if you know what to look for, you end up finding quality. When you dont get to choose, you either settle down or end up alone. Its offer and demand.
This article isn’t talking about romantic relationships. It’s talking about intimate platonic friendships and how as a man the author found those platonic relationships to be shallower than before he transitioned. This has nothing to do with online dating.
If you have a close female friend, just ask her to show you some highlight of dating app messages. Seriously a good way to start doubting the intelligence of human specie as a whole.
Upvpted because I think that this and the accompanying replies are an interesting look into an outside cishet male viewpoint. Not that I agree but it provides opportunity to analyze an argument that may be common.
Oof they are awful, and indicative of the issues raised in the article. So many of the men commenting are defending the “man” stereotype as “natural”, and ignoring that men have issues existing in society probably because of the pressures of that stereotype. Nobody wants men to feel isolated and lonely and kill themselves 4x as much. I don’t think that’s a “natural” part of being a man. At least it doesn’t have to be.
This is why it’s hard for me to take these types seriously.
They complain about not getting compliments, but refuse to compliment each other for fear of sounding “gay”. It’s like they only count compliments if it’s from a sexually interested woman they happen to find attractive.
But women, especially the attractive ones, know better than to compliment men randomly for fear of “leading them on”.
This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.
That’s my experience, too. Most of the times I’ve opened up to a girlfriend, it’s turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.
The theoretical steps are rather clear, it’s just a different “vibe” I have with men and women (therefore I guess most of my friends are women) - sure in the end I just need start doing it, but as with all emotional things it’s easier said then done.
never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends
My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We’ve had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.
Sure, I’m not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
He’s a fool if he thinks he’s going to form deep connections with other men in a short time period, especially as an outsider. Men make 4 friends in junior highschool and decide that’s enough for the rest of our lives. Men are also very tribal. He’s going to have to wait for years, or even decades to find the deep and meaningful relationships he’s looking for. That’s just how men operate.
It’s very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It’s not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It’s spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it’s either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who’ve actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn’t separated us.
When I open up to women, it’s either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don’t anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
I’ve seen the world through many lenses, and the most profound moments have been with people who fully see and love me; that takes vulnerability and trust. Focus your time on learning how to be vulnerable, build intentional and meaningful friendships, and heal your relationship with what it means to be feminine.
That’s it right there. It’s about opening yourself and your vulnerabilities to others. Unfortunately, this is often perceived negatively by men. You really have to gauge who you can open up to as some will take advantage of your vulnerability and use it against you. That’s how you end up being bullied at school or at work.
I know because I tend to open up to people and tell them how I feel. I’ve built deep and meaningful relationships with many people, male, female and in-between. I’m not afraid to show my emotions and tell people how I truly feel. But, there have been a few times where I ended up being hurt. Not just by men, but women too. Or being mocked¸ which is extremely difficult because you question yourself a lot when this happens.
What’s especially unfortunate is that it’s not just men that perceive it negatively. I’m reminded of Brené Brown’s Ted Talk quote: youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0?t=16m37s
People think toxic masculinity is just a men’s thing. But it’s not. It’s a whole culture and it involves everybody, even women, who perpetuate the culture.
As others have said, it’s not just men that perceive that negatively; women do also. I can’t recall who said it, but feminism has meant that there are many different ways to be a woman now, but there is still only one socially acceptable way to be a man. The social consequences to men for being emotionally vulnerable can mean the loss of all social connections; I know that I lost about 3/4 of the people I thought were friends when I failed to successfully complete suicide. That creates a very strong disincentive to being vulnerable in the future.
I’m sorry for what happened to you. :( I hope you’re doing way better now.
However, there isn’t just one way to be a man. I think that’s the narrow perception that the concept of masculinity creates.
You don’t have to be any special way or have to do anything special to “be a man”. Just be.
For centuries, men have been defined through wars and combat, were dominant, violent, and were the main bread winners of the house and were considered the smarter of the two sexes. And women were considered lesser beings, unintelligent and unable to make important decisions like voting, and weaker. They were expected to be servile and it was allowed to give them corporal punishment if they do much as talked back. Men were at the top and women were at the bottom. That’s why any man who wasn’t didn’t have the set of characteristics that made them masculine were often bullied and laughed at. Through feminism however, women had nowhere to go but up and thrive.
Suddenly, men weren’t the dominant, smartest bread winners and violence became frowned upon. What was traditionally masculine or the set of characteristics that defined men, also applied to women and some became negative attributes. The lines between femininity and masculinity became blurred.
Women evolved and redefined what it meant to be a woman. And it’s basically to just be yourself and do your best to be a good role model. And honestly that could apply to anybody. Not just women.
We need to stop trying to define “what it takes to be a man” and just be. Anyone who doesn’t accept that is doomed to stay in the past and not evolve with the rest of society and live in constant frustration.
That’s it there, as a younger man most of the relationships I’ve been in end around 1-3 months in when I start trusting them and open up more emotionally. They almost always start ignoring me, ghost me or tell me it’s not working out.
It makes you really just lose confidence in yourself as a person, when you’re reserved they want you they want your body, once you open up and you’re vulnerable even once everything changes all of the sudden.
I’m lucky to have a girlfriend who doesn’t think like that, the fact that she is part of LGBT community probably helps.
As a minor example supporting a lot of what’s in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, “I don’t know, I didn’t ask”. She seemed shocked and can’t understand why I say we don’t have those kinds of conversations.
There’s a fascinating history for why there may have been significant differences throughout history but they seem to have far more to do with the state of the medical establishment and their willingness to marginalize certain people than anything else.
I believe that’s why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.
That’s accurate, but doesn’t convey they entire picture accurately.
Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women’s incomplete attempts were deemed to be a “cry for help” rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.
oh come on 4:1 consistently on an almost global scale is way too far to say that all of these women’s attempts are sincere, 4:1 is batshit. it’s the same as when someone says ‘ive attempted ten times’, cause no they didnt, if they did genuinely theyd certainly be dead. theyre not ‘cries for help’, theyre more like them getting internal validation for their feelings. garbaj on youtube made a great video about the romantising of alcholism but it applies here too. i know what i said is a tough pill to swallow but thats the cold truth. im not saying women en masse arent depressed or that theyre doing it for attention, i am saying far less of them are sincerely suicidal and want internal validation of their depression. same shit with sh, it becomes a contest of who can hurt themselves the most as you dont feel your pain is legitmate. people also do this wjth the whole ‘i only got 4 hours sleep’ ‘i only got 2 shut up’ ‘my life is harder, you had it easy’ ‘i drink 4 beers a day’ ‘yeah wrll i drink a bottle of vodka’. people may or may not say this stuff out loud but people definitely fucking feel it deep down and start hurting themselves to feel like their emotions are justified. people need to get that someone having it ‘worse’ or ‘better’ means jackshit to your feelings, the whole ‘be grateful’ for what you have cause ‘a kid in africa…’ narrative is such a fucking dogshit way of thinking and leads to this shit by undermining and delegitmising feelings. if youre unhappy, you dont need to prove it. just cause someone needs alcohol to cope doesnt mean their circumstances are worse / feelings are more valid (those two things do not directly impact one another, dont think i mean that). even if their feelings were ‘more valid’ somehow, why the fuck does that matter to yours. this isnt some sucide competition, your depression is independent of theirs, they have no relationship.
So all those men who die from suicide matter less?
At what point do you realize that you’re talking about other human being’s lives and stop using them as a scorecard?
And who decided they weren’t “cries for help”? I only ask because of the recent attempts by feminists to cover up the fact that the majority of the homeless are men by (1) giving homeless stats by every dmeographic except “men” and (2) fabricating the category of the “hidden homeless” (i.e., women who live in homes that aren’t theirs…but still live in homes).
Men aren’t “broken” just because we interact differently than women. It may be news to that trans man, but we don’t have the same emotional needs as women. We interact in ways that work for us. It is fashionable today to refer to all masculinity as toxic, but we are not the same as women, hard stop. Stop trying to pretend that we are.
As a married cis man moving towards his 40s, I can only confirm from my perspective that the male-to-male friendship experience seems broken.
First of all, in college I learned about the performative nature of gender and that gave me the tools I needed to push back against social pressure. I wear what’s comfortable, I try to be considate towards others, I talk about emotions, and I do what sounds fun without a care about whether it makes me “feminine” or “gay”. I feel that pushing against gender performance expectations has made me a better and fulfilled person.
But male-male friendships are still really hard, and I don’t get it. I’ve lost all of mine, for various reasons. Some of us got busy with careers, families, or whatever other reason. I’ve reached out now, multiple times, over the last few years, to old male friends and coworkers that I worked with for 5+ years.
The conversation starts with a list of accomplishments. I congratulate them, so glad they’re doing well. We’re both pretty happy in careers too.
I ask how they’re doing, what do they do for fun, you still with that same girl? Fine. Same old. Uh huh.
I suggest that maybe we should do something sometime. Play disc golf. Play some games. Hang out. Meet somewhere. Bring your kids if you want, I’d love to meet them…and at this point they get distant and eventually ghost me.
After a few instances of this, I started to wonder if there’s something wrong with me. Maybe they didn’t like me. Maybe I said something wrong. But there was one other instance. A woman I worked with for like 9 months. I called her once to ask for a job reference. And we ended up talking for an hour about our lives, our SOs, life goals etc. Before I could ask, she ended up suggesting that hang out and bring our SOs.
The only male friends I have right now are the male SOs of female friends or my wife’s girl friends.
Some of the most fulfilling friend groups we’ve had since were groups with LGBT and NB folks. And I think that’s because, even though gender performance is absolutely an important thing in these groups, there’s less pressure for us, a cis couple, to “perform” in a certain way. Our conversations are more real and liberated. It’s less anxious and competitive. But at the same time, those friendships eventually end because I don’t they can really connect with us - like, we’re still outsiders and so there’s a bit of a block. I understand, but it sucks.
Because we try to connect with cis men, or even couples, in our area, we either get standoffishness or competitions. Like, we’re getting evaluated for our performance of gender / society / life expectations. My wife and I have careers, no kids, and we’re fine, but we’re also trying to explore who we are outside that. And new cis friendships at our age seems to be less about connecting and doing fun things and more about bragging about accomplishments or complaining about the lack of them over coffee.
And its so hard to find any cis men that are just fucking chill and maybe tired of all the anxiety and social pressure around masculinity and just willing to be a person rather than a “man”.
Friend. Compatriot. Denizen of the internet. Thank you for reaching out, for telling me your story. But yours is an example of one of the many attitudes in men that frustrate me to no end and keep us all lonely.
You are not lonely because of your problems. Instead, you’re allowing your problems to excuse your lonliness.
Listen to yourself, “folks like me are just destined to be forever alone”. No you’re not. If everyone who said that on the internet decided to get together, we’d have conventions that rival comic con. It’s not impossible, you can overcome it, and you deserve to have a social life.
I get it. It’s hard. I’ve been there. I am also an introvert that suffers from social anxiety disorder. It takes a monumental effort and a lot of mental gymnastics for me to put myself in social situations. But I force myself into uncomfortable situations because I know it is good for me.
So enough berating you. What do you do?
In regards to finding a partner, my best advice is to work on yourself first. Women typically don’t care that much about physical appearance but they also don’t want to dive into a depressive spiral. A codependent man is an unattractive man. Work on the things you don’t like about yourself. And once you are happier and a little more sure of yourself, love will come naturally.
My best advice is to get a therapist. I’m fucking serious. Because when you are working on yourself, no matter how mentally healthy you are, you will get yourself in ruts that block any progress. And a therapist has the tools to get you out of it. But also because you can tell them your goal (have a social life) and your blocks (introvert, etc.) and then they can help you craft a plan. They’re like a personal trainer for your brain.
“A therapist is expensive” - not necessarily. Talk to your primary care doctor. Tell them you’d like to talk to a therapist. They will give you a referral and your insurance will cover part of it, guaranteed. If it’s still too expensive, use a service like Betterhelp. They’re not perfect, but it’s better than nothing. Regardless, get a THERAPIST not a psychologist. A psychologist can prescribe drugs and you don’t need that until your therapist suggests it.
But most men won’t take that advice no matter what I say. So the only other advice I can offer is to do the work. Look for local events or get togethers in your area. Look for sub to Lemmy / Reddit groups dedicated to your town or area. Look for Discord groups local to your region. Look for book clubs or crafting groups. And look beyond your typical interests. You never know, you might find a new hobby and new friends.
Then, go to events / get togethers. Force yourself to talk to people. Be uncomfortable. Truly. It’ll suck at first but people will respond if you engage - remember that people are there because they want to meet people. Awkwardness is totally okay.
Regardless, every time you’re tempted to say “folks like me are destined to be forever alone” replace that with “I have decided to be forever alone.” Come on man, you can do it. I believe you can. You deserve a social life.
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