EnsignAesop ,

I figure this is as fine a place to ask as anywhere else… what is the extra badge that Pelia wears? I don’t recognize it and I haven’t spotted any close ups on it to get a good look

NikkoJT ,
@NikkoJT@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I don’t think it’s been identified. However, she is a long-serving Starfleet officer, and was both a Chief Fleet Inspector and a (probably senior) instructor at Starfleet Academy before joining the Enterprise, so you could make a reasonable guess that it’s a badge of seniority/advanced qualification.

startrekexplained ,

I hated this episode when I first saw it, must have been in a bad mood because I rewatched it tonight and its brilliant. It has DS9 levels of writing, the acting is excellent, especially from M’Benga, and it leaves a lot to debate about, even the slightly wtf ending does. Easily SNW’s best and I’d debate it may be the best war Trek episode since episodes like Siege of AR588 and The Forgotten. Hell, it’s better than those. Also Jambalaya ;)

williams_482 ,
@williams_482@startrek.website avatar

Well, the previously inexplicable “inject a bunch of drugs to fight Klingons” scene in the season opener has suddenly paid off.

I have little to say now except that this episode was a seriously heavy hitter. Just… wow. And ouch.

triktrek ,

Even with this “backstory” of this green juice, it really isn’t much of a backstory. It’s just explained as some chemical that makes you stronger – it still feels like a cheap plot device, and that action sequence in the season opener was still unexpectedly long.

reddig33 ,

Think of it as trek adrenaline/speed/meth. In war, governments often try to find drugs they can give soldiers to enhance performance.

inappropriatecontent ,

I spent over a decade addicted to meth, and in my experience, that green slime ain’t meth.

tdriley ,
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@williams_482 @triktrek Many fans react badly to the P-12 serum as a lazy plot device, but consider: In key battles, it’d make tactical sense for Klingons to draw Fed soldiers into hand to hand combat, because they’re typically experienced blade warriors. It would then be attractive to the Fed to develop something like P-12 as a counter-tactic. Then consider there is a potential sub-plot exploring the ethics of humans revisiting their Eugenics Wars-era mistakes.

tdriley ,
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@williams_482 @triktrek (It is mentioned elsewhere that human soldiers in the Eugenics Wars were given drugs to make them better fighters, and human history remembers this as a huge mistake/atrocity).

poundsignbuttstuff ,

Do we need the backstory? It’s space PCP for war. Jokes aside, look at how many times in war, we (and I mean a collective we because numerous countries have done this over the last century+) have given soldiers, pilots, etc amphetamines and more in order to improve their ability to fight, stay awake, and win the war.

M’Benga made a future drug that does all this which he prefers people don’t use but keeps it just in case he has to save people or survive battles.

That’s all the explanation I need. Old Trek didn’t give us even that much most of the time - just treknobabble.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@poundsignbuttstuff @startrek I thought he says explicitly that it contains adrenaline and pain inhibitors. I’m not sure such a real-world cocktail would have the portrayed effects, but it’s clear they’re trying to ground the concoction realistically.

IonAddis ,
@IonAddis@lemmy.world avatar

I want to call out to everyone the BRILLIANT usage of the medical transporter incoming warning during the war scenes of the episode.

I don’t have PTSD, but I do have cPTSD which is close enough, and the way the sound designers utilized that medical transporter incoming warning seemed VERY clearly an attempt to demonstrate to viewers how PTSD triggers are formed.

Like–so many shows focus on explosions and stuff as a PTSD trigger. Because usually you talk about the soldiers as the vets, not the support personnel.

But with the MEDICS–that sound, going off again and again and again, when they were already overwhelmed and didn’t have the staff or equipment to deal with the incoming wounded…

It’s so clear to me that that sound alone, telling them they’re about to get more dumped on their head when they can’t even deal with the ones they already have, is meant to be fixated in the viewer’s memory to sort of demonstrate how it’d get lodged as a trigger in the medic’s memories.

It was just a fantastic use of sound design to help tell the story. They did it with such a deft hand that it didn’t come off as poor sound design (as it could have), but was still CONSTANTLY THERE, putting everyone on edge.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we hear that sound in a later episode and either Chapel or M’Benga (or both) completely hit the roof.

Edit: Unrelated to the sound, I also like how they had M’Benga and Chapel fix up the young man, even resorting to “medieval” medicine by manually pumping his heart–only for him to go out and then COME BACK dead.

It just gives a feeling of hopelessness. They spent so much time fixing him up–and he died anyhow after he was sent back into the meat grinder.

poundsignbuttstuff ,

All of what you described gave me strong MASH vibes and me the think the writers had to have loved that show.

When the transporters were being announced, I thought of the choppers coming in and how they all mobilized to deal with it including getting people out of the way so new patients could arrive.

Not to mention the great but heart breaking episodes where they did have to choose one life over another and that was their job in wartime. So incredibly heartbreaking in a comedy show, heartbreaking in a scifi show, yet so poignant.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@poundsignbuttstuff @startrek The war scenes definitely reminded me of the serious side of MAS*H.

themz ,
@themz@lemmy.world avatar

Wow. There’s no contest anymore: SNW is undoubtedly the best new Trek. This season has been fantastic. Somehow they’ve just outdone last week’s crossover. And they just did war ‘better’ than DS9.

Olap ,

Steady now, DS9 has so much more breadth to war than what we just saw. The pacing was too fast for a single episode with such gravitas for me. The final act in particular was rushed. A doctor as the real butcher (!), the ambassador without a real right of reply, and the implications of a cover up from 2 starfleet officers, one of which lied to the captain. The use of a banned serum also clouding the episode too, combined with special forces. A lack of chapel’s report.

I suspect at least 10 minutes on the cutting room floor here. Wish it was there

Don’t get me wrong. One of the best EVER in trek, I was glued from start to finish. But afterwards I wanted a two parter! Bring back some doubles please script writers and producers

themz , (edited )
@themz@lemmy.world avatar

OK. Yes. I don’t mean to say its take on war is better than the entirety of DS9, but as a single episode (with the benefit of modern effects tech) it sure dived straight into the horror of it all! Then landed at a dark place with a conclusion that really isn’t justice.

Olap ,

Can see where the budget went this season for sure

poundsignbuttstuff ,

I look forward to seeing someone write in retrospect a deep dive into a comparison of M’Benga and Bashir in wartime. The two felt the same emotions, dealt with the same decisions, and had to deal with tough choices and the inherent struggle of the Hippocratic oath in wartime yet both of them handled it so incredibly differently.

That is a Daystrom essay I look forward to reading.

triktrek ,

As someone else mentioned in another comment, it’s bonkers that SNW can do a cartoon episode, a war episode and a musical episode back-to-back. I love now experimental SNW is!

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Elevating a notorious enemy general to the position of ambassador in a handful of years is a total Starfleet move.

famousringo ,

“We turned this war criminal into a crusader for peace. Just imagine what we’ll do to you, punk.”

milkisklim ,

Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.

Garak: What is it?

Quark: A human drink. It’s called root beer.

Garak: I don’t know.

Quark: Come on. Aren’t you just a little bit curious?

Quark: What do you think?

Garak: It’s vile.

Quark: I know. It’s so bubbly and cloying and happy.

Garak: Just like the Federation.

Quark: But you know what’s really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it.

Garak: It’s insidious.

Quark: Just like the Federation.

poundsignbuttstuff ,

Such an amazing scene and seeing it written makes me respect those two actors so much more. There isn’t really a lot said on the page but their acting really sold that scene and made it spectacular.

I can’t imagine being the writer on the show who wrote that and then saw it acted by those two. I’d have thought I was the best writer ever but the writer had a great analogy and it was the actors that made it sing (and director, editor, producers, etc.)

chronicledmonocle ,

Dang, man…what a whiplash from last week’s episode. From slapstick funny to Siege of AR-558 in 10 seconds flat. LOL.

Excellent episode, though. I’ve got to say that M’Benga being basically a butcher was not something I expected.

poundsignbuttstuff ,

I heard some people complaining about this on a podcast but my view is that they’re doing a good job alternating between the heavier episodes and the more lighthearted episodes. If we had 5 light hearted followed by 5 heavy episodes, it would be more jarring than alternating as they have been.

This is the episodic show for which the fans have been begging for years. Now that we have it and get the fun episodes mixed with the harder hitting episodes, some people have complaints.

We also have to consider that they are getting 10 episodes instead of 26 or 22. You’re not getting 8 good episodes, 8 meh episodes, and 6 bad episodes anymore (thos is a reference to how screenwriters viewed episodes at the time). Now we have 10 episodes that need to be on point with maybe a couple meh episodes.

In my opinion, the best way to do that is to alternate as they have. Not everyone wants a serious episode every week (like all those complaining that Star Trek has become too dark) and not everyone likes the silly episodes (as referenced by those who didn’t like the crossover). By alternating, you get that old school Trek, episodic story telling that make Trek so great to begin with.

I know you weren’t saying all those things I’m alluding to but I was talking to my radio in the car as they were saying these things today and your comment brought those thoughts back out.

I mean, I keep thinking back to all the silly episodes of TNG, DS9, and VOY. Personally they are some of my favorites and don’t detract from the more serious episodes at all.

tdriley , (edited )
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@ValueSubtracted
Did anyone else wonder (spoiler warning):

When Rah arrives on Enterprise, all the war vets hate him, but did M'Benga's damaged mind actually awaken his military instincts as a defence mechanism, compelling him to "finish" the unfinished mission to kill Rah?

When M'Benga & Rah first spar, M'Benga says he thought about not showing up but changed his mind because "Klingon judo is good exercise". Does he then use the session in a safe environment to A) trick Rah into...

tdriley ,
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@ValueSubtracted ...thinking he is the superior fighter, and B) test if he can get a quick, sharp attack past his guard? Was he prepping in case he wanted/needed to kill him?

We don't see the end fight, but we believe from M'Benga looking Pike in the eyes, twice saying "I didn't start the fight" that he didn't.

However, in M'Benga's PTSD-ridden mind, where he never "finished" the mission to kill Rah, maybe he really doesn't think he started it, because Rah "started it" on J'Gal?

tdriley ,
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@ValueSubtracted This could be the case whether or not Rah started the fight at the end, but after rewatching, it feels like M'Benga's actions were all preparing for that outcome (or preparing to protect himself?) Rah of course also has a motive to kill M'Benga - he's the only person who knows what actually happened with the Klingon commanders on J'Gal.

RootBeerGuy ,
@RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I liked it, but two things went a bit too far.

The bio-bed acting up was just too silly of an issue to bring up. I mean this is starfleets flagship with the best of the best on board and M’Benga keeps working on this bio-bed, never fully fixing it? Sounds weird.

Second, they are making this whole keeping a person buffered in a transporter thing way too useful. Like the only downside seems to be that if you get a malfunction you may need to “delete” the person. I remember some episode of another series, was it Rikers clone in TNG? Where they were worried about integrity of the pattern, since it was stored so long. Did not seem to be a problem for his daughter though. Don’t like how this is so trivialized, it would solve so many problems if this could be done “professionally”.

a_random_fox ,
@a_random_fox@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

There was the episode with Scotty in TNG (Relics) where there was indeed the problem of the pattern of the person who was in the buffer with him degrading, but that was over decades (2294-2369), while M’Bengas daughter was in the pattern buffer significantly less time. She was also rematerialised from time to time and it was noted that not doing so risked the integrity of the pattern, which contributed to the issue seen in the TNG episode.

michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@RootBeerGuy @startrek The transporter is essentially magic. If you think too long about it, you’ll wonder why, for example, everyone doesn’t “store their pattern”, and thus become effectively immortal. Or why a pattern can’t be materialized multiple times, to generate an army of clones.

I love Trek, but it’s much more space opera than hard sci-fi, and often the “sciencey” bits are purely for narrative convenience (see also “holodeck”).

darth_helmet ,

Yep, particularly with the Riker clone, it seems like the safest way to do away missions would be to send down an instance of the crew rather than the actual crew. But then what would they do with all those extra red shirts?

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

David Brin’s book ‘Kiln People’ explores this idea.

The problem is, as we saw with Tom Riker, the duplicates have their own existence and experiences. Should they just be destroyed like Tuvix in order to restore the originals?

darth_helmet ,

Transporters essentially destroy and recreate people anyway, you have to imagine it is already something that most folks in Starfleet have made peace with, somehow.

Tom Riker is proof that we’re just bags of meat, and consciousness is an emergent phenomenon. The only difference is that instances copies have a divergence point in their experiences. The Bobiverse books explore similar ideas.

But it is hard to imagine those instances wouldn’t want to avoid getting merc’d Tuvix-style. The handwavium way you’d probably try to approach it would be some sort of memory reintegration. Not implausible in Star Trek

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Re: the transporters.

Patterns in the buffer usually degrade over time - The TNG Technical Manual says patterns can last about seven minutes before degradation begins. Obviously, Scotty was able to extend this dramatically, though with only a 50% success rate.

They did touch on this in SNW season one, when M’Benga said he had to rematerialize his daughter periodically. However, the timeframe, while not specified, seemed a helluva lot longer than seven minutes.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

The Tech Manual notwithstanding, on screen we’ve definitely seen longer than seven minutes, notably VOY: “Counterpoint” and DIS: “Stormy Weather”. I take it like I do the original Tech Manual’s statement that you can’t fire phasers at warp.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

You’re certainly right that there’s some wiggle room, though “Counterpoint” has the advantage of having shown the pattern degradation occurring.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I love the TNG Technical Manual but anything onscreen has to trump it.

I’m much more fussed about rapid organ fabricators and dermal regenerators being a thing this early.

I think we’re going to have to buy into 23rd century technology being ahead of were we expect from TOS - but not necessarily ahead of some of the wild claims (and therapies) Bones had access to in the movies.

goGetF1 ,

For all we know, 24th century transporters have an advantage over the 23rd century design but at the expense of superior pattern storage.

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

Or they don’t, but 23rd century medicine isn’t sophisticated enough to detect/understand the damage.

Hogger85b , (edited )

I thought it was played like pattern buffer storage is an m'benga special skill he is better at than his peers

darth_helmet ,

He’s a cleaner, a doctor, and also the best transporter tech in the business, better than folks operating teleporters a hundred years later.

M’Benga Sue

ari ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    RootBeerGuy , (edited )
    @RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    You raise some good points but your condescending intro was seriously unnecessary and uncalled for.

    Sure it could be symbolic. It could also be just a bio-bed. If its used as a metaphor it is a terrible one in my opinion, seeing as this is an advanced future with massive technological advancement. Why out of all people on this ship is it M’Benga doing this, never succeeding, but at no time an actual engineer, you know, like someone with 1000+ years experience, is asked to fix it? I get it that its part of his character that he is handy, but still this is medical equipment, its essential, it needs to work 100%. How would this not be escalated to relevant personel? This is not the war times depicted in the flashbacks, they have resource to do this. Also quite some time has passed since the Gorn attack.

    I rather agree with one of the other posters who said its a setup for something to come.

    So, thanks for your comment but seriously work on your attitude if you consider posting more than just this one comment.

    Hogger85b ,

    Excellent post, absolutely right about symobolism

    ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    Personal attacks are out of line.

    ari ,

    Being 100% honest with you I never intended to attack anyone personally and would greatly appreciate help in highlighting where I’ve done that. I’d normally reread my comment to try to figure out where any misunderstanding could have occurred in situations like this, but the comment’s been removed. I put considerable effort into that comment and don’t want this to happen again in the future.

    eva_sieve ,

    Our literal introduction to Brad Boimler is him trying to repair a broken replicator! Things break and they don’t magically get replaced despite (because of?) Starfleet.

    Kinda agree on the media literacy thing. Subtext and symbolism exist! I don’t even think this episode’s was particularly subtle. Sometimes I wonder what percentage of the fandom believe that Janeway genuinely would get her crew killed just to get some coffee.

    Odo ,

    About the bed: There seems to be an ongoing sub-plot about random systems on the ship glitching out. I’ve seen speculation they’re quietly setting up some kind of AI takeover issue later on. Note the odd shot the episode ends on, with the bed’s info screen flickering again.

    RootBeerGuy ,
    @RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Sounds feasible but reminds me of the DISCO control plot. I hope that is not returning.

    Hogger85b ,

    My take is the same as the other poster the biobed was metaphor for the doctors state of mind.....but happy to be wrong if it is system glitches and have seen suggestions it links to romulan time sabatours

    triktrek ,

    They should take the idea of “storing people in buffers” all the way to extreme and explore it like Black Mirror does. What does this mean if everyone had the opportunity to store people in buffers? Can everyone sign up for this service and instantly beam you into a buffer whenever you have an incurable diseases at the time? Is there a service to auto-beam you into the buffer if the ship is about to crash-land? Can richer people pay to have poorer people’s buffer be deleted when you run out of buffer space? What happens if there is a glitch and people who are in the buffer experience 20 years in real-time?

    I think there’s so much potential for more exploration here. It would be cool to have Charlie Booker on a Star Trek episode, as he kinda did a fun/excellent/dark Star Trek Black Mirror episode too.

    rother_stuebs ,
    @rother_stuebs@mastodon.online avatar

    @ValueSubtracted
    I rewatched VOY "Jetrel" some days ago by coincidence and see some parallels (and - of course - differences) on the meta level.

    M'Benga and Neelix both in trouble with their conscience (for opposite reasons) - Rah/Jetrel both ignoring the borders of M'Benga/Neelix, behaving selfless but having selfish reasons.
    Wellmeaning Starfleet personnel that was not involved in the war pushing M'Benga/Neelix.

    tdriley ,
    @tdriley@mas.to avatar

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    transwarp ,

    TOS had a proposed spin off for him, which would have ended up about his brother (played by the same actor) as first officer of a medical ship.

    It would be astoundingly different after SNW.

    reddig33 ,

    One of SNW’s strongest episodes. My only critique would be that there’s no way Starfleet would let it slide that a crew member killed a very important ambassador — no matter what the story. There’d better be a future episode where Starfleet leadership tries to throw Mbenga under the bus or something.

    Also, please spend a little more money on the Klingon headpiece so it doesn’t look like it came from Party City.

    StillPaisleyCat , (edited )
    @StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

    That Klingon headpiece and wig combination was evoking bad clown makeup.

    The shininess of the prosthesis and lack of significant colour grading of the ridges made it appear all the more fake. I am not getting why so many fans think this is an improvement.

    Hogger85b ,

    isnt it meant to be a halfway house between TOS to TNG

    VindictiveJudge ,

    Seems more like a midpoint between TNG and DSC designs to me. He has that nondescript head ridge from DSC’s Klingons, for instance.

    xenoc ,

    He may well be one of the “humanized” Klingons from the Augment virus, who is using prostheses to look like uninfected Klingons. Or who had less-than-successful plastic surgery for the same reason. But didn’t yet modify the human style teeth.

    At this point in the timeline there’s probably a mix of original ridged Klingons, TOS-type humanized Klingons, surgically and prostheses-restored Klingons, and overreacted-gene-therapy blue/grey double-nostrilled Discovery-style Klingons running around. Probably on separate ships so they don’t have to look at or be looked at by other style Klingons who consider each other dishonored.

    StillPaisleyCat ,
    @StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

    A mix of Klingon types is a very compelling situation and I’d really welcome seeing it in a live action show.

    I understand why the EPs wanted, practically to pull back from the full face printed prostheses that have been the norm on Discovery for all aliens. They very much impede expression. It takes a lot for the actors to project their performance through.

    However the Klingons in SNW aren’t quite working. Somehow, depending on lighting, they have a very plastic quality that does not give a natural skin effect in UHD.

    The ones we saw in the season premiere varied in this to some degree, but under the brightness of the lighting on Enterprise it was extremely evident in some scenes. The kind of airbrushing that was done for Worf on the latex prostheses back in the 90s likely wouldn’t work in UHD, but what they’ve got just isn’t working on our OLED.

    On the other hand, I found the Andorian special forces officer to be the best Andorian of the current era.

    ieightpi ,

    Up until the final scene, I was loving the episode. I’m still not sure I feel about that ending. But you are probably on to seomthign that there will be a follow up episode next season.

    Qapla ,

    So… I have loved this entire season but I am not sure about this one.

    I’m a vet with PTSD, and I’ll preface my upcoming comments by simply stating that maybe it hit close to home and made me uncomfortable. Maybe dealing with those feelings clouded my perception of the episode. However, the TNG and DS9 episodes dealing with PTSD are some of my favorite and are actually therapeutic for me, so maybe that’s not the case.

    Ultimately, the message was dour and I resent it a little since it implies that there isn’t any healing that can occur from this type of trauma, which I believe is completely false. Sure, there might not be any healing for M’Benga as a character, but the thematic message of the episode implied some stuff I’m not really a fan of.

    Furthermore, how is Pike supposed to operate as a Captain after both M’Benga and Chapel have committed conspiracy to cover up a murder? I think I will just have to head-canon this episode way. It’ll join “Sons of Mogh” as an episode I just pretend never happened.

    I’m fine with a bit of moral ambiguity in Star Trek. But I think this episode crossed a line. Hopefully we will see fallout from this come up later in the show.

    I really hate typing this but M’Benga went from possibly my favorite character on the show to someone I sort of resent. And I feel like Chapel is right there alongside him. And it made Pike look ineffectual as a leader- he really should have reprimanded Ortegas.

    Plus, back to it again, lying about the blade is conspiracy and it really shattered my perception of those two characters.

    Anyways, this is just me rambling. I’ll say something positive about the episode: I enjoyed seeing Spock struggle with seeing Chapel in distress and finally figuring out he needed to step away.

    autojourno ,

    On M’Benga, I can’t quarrel with a thing you say and I haven’t been through what you’ve been through. But I’d encourage you to consider that he’s not a finished product. If this show gets to continue as far as it can, we know he’s in for a lot more change. Maybe he has to heal from here to end up somehow working under McCoy. The state he’s in when he hides this from Pike isn’t the end for him. Maybe this is part of trauma we get to watch him process from here?

    eva_sieve ,

    I would have liked M’benga’s ending monologue to be less final. Instead of “things break, we fix them, but they’ll break again,” even just leaving it as a question-- “can we ever truly fix these things?” would feel like it leaves more room for hope and redemption in the future.

    const_void ,
    @const_void@lemmy.world avatar

    Oooh—good pt!

    Could be foreshadowing!!! I am not tracking the significance of the busted sick bay but I’m sure there is something there!

    JWBananas ,
    @JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

    I am not a vet, and even I had to turn it off and come back to watch it later when I was prepared. That was super triggering.

    StillPaisleyCat ,
    @StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

    I understand your reaction.

    For me, this is in many ways a less dark and cynical take than DS9 In the Pale Moonlight and certainly the Section 31 references.

    What was critical here was the difference between the journey of individual traumatized officers who had been forced repeatedly to take actions in wartime that compromised their values, and brought out capabilities they never sought to own, vs Starfleet leadership taking cynical action. It’s also a direct outcome of Starfleet’s cynical actions in having M’Benga develop the serum and then use it.

    Starfleet’s postwar directive, and Pike’s insistence on pressing it with his senior officers, created the immediate crisis.

    However, we need to take account of the fact that it was the ambassador’s own repeated insistence on confronting, engaging and attempting to recruit M’Benga to assist in his mission that led to the break.

    M’Benga seemed to be processing his trauma and managing it as well as he could. He wasn’t at the point of exposing the ambassador’s deceit although he appeared to have been contemplating it.

    It was the ambassador’s decision to seek M’Benga out again, in his own safe space, his private office, and own refusal to take M’Benga’s rejection that seemed to take the contemplation to action.

    The cover up by Chapel and M’Benga is serious, and in the case of M’Benga this is the second case of his hiding something of significance from his captain. He’s an understandable but grey character, and we will have to see where the show takes him.

    In Chapel’s case, we have been shown that her bright effervescence hides much darker experiences. It’s now easier to imagine how she will evolves to the very restrained version of herself in TOS.

    I feel this is a very authentic portrayal of the chronic legacy unaddressed of trauma in individuals, how a military service and society will need to move on after a society-wide war when its individuals are not yet ready to do so, and how disasterous the potential outcomes when the divide been societal and individual needs in healing are ignored.

    It’s not the 24th century Starfleet we’re seeing where there has been a long period of peace and officers can be treated effectively for trauma before returning to duty and it locks in with chronic effects.

    I agree that it does not show Pike’s leadership in a positive light, but I find it realistic. What it does show is the gulf between war veterans and those senior officers who, while veterans of other kinds of conflicts, were not involved.

    Starfleet needs senior officers, without direct personal history, like Pike to lead the peace and move forward, just as the western allies needed to find a way with some German leaders and scientists after WW2. But not every individual at the front can withstand the stress of that direct engagement with a former enemy.

    Starfleet’s order to force veterans into direct contact with a former enemy was psychologically unhealthy and unrealistic, but a value-focused officer like Pike would not have the insight to see that.

    This gulf was underscored at a personal level by Chapel’s conversation with Spock, when she could not share her experience with him and he could not ease her pain. The scene between them was an essential confirmation.

    What I found interesting is that Number One had the best read on the situation. She saw the pressure the ambassador was putting directly on the veterans in the crew.

    As the executive officer, it’s her job to manage personnel, to assess readiness, to deliver a functioning ship for the captain’s command. She accurately saw the problem and recommended action to mitigate the situation by reducing the time to deliver the ambassador to Starbase 24.

    What she was not able to do however was to convince Pike to stand down a bit on Starfleet’s toxic order to require veterans of the war to show acceptance of the ambassador. Nor did we see her attempt to try to convince Pike. He was leading from his values and unable to really take measure of its impact on the individuals.

    I find it interesting that this show is giving us episodes that show the negatives of Pike’s command style as well as the strengths. While we’ve seen the negatives in Kirk’s and Picard’s temperament’s and command styles acknowledged in the movies and in Picard, this seems to be the first time we’ve had it done with a hero captain in an ongoing television series when he’s in active command of the ship.

    isaac ,
    @isaac@lakora.us avatar

    @StillPaisleyCat Although I wish some of Pike's dialogue had been fleshed out a bit to make him feel like less of a generic foil for M'Benga (especially in their scene near the end), I do really like that they had the lead character of the show be the one who doesn't get it, and in a way that's in keeping with his characterization (it ties in particularly well with last season's alternate-timeline Romulan episode, I think).

    Azfaa ,

    So I haven’t been to war, or suffered through it or anything and I can’t say I don’t understand some of the feelings but thank you so much for sharing this. Partially because it makes me feel more hopeful that it isn’t so black and impossible, that it is possible to heal and move on to a degree. I still agree with most of what you said, I felt sad, if not outright disappointed because to me M’benga’s actions aren’t justifiable. It would have been one thing to have Rahl go through Nuremberg style trials or something but the Federation did decide to grant him asylum. I guess I personally dream of a more optimistic world where it might be possible to forgive, but yeah… idk.

    Mezentine ,

    I’m not a vet and I don’t have PTSD but my girlfriend and I had some pretty similar issues to you with this episode. I think, thankfully, the episode doesn’t seem to expect us to think that M’benga was “right” at the end, or to be happy about what happened, and the final scene between him and Pike is critically important because I don’t think Pike is supposed to look foolish in that scene. Absent that, this episode would feel really gross to me.

    As it is, really the only way I can work with this is knowing that the actual arc here is the enormous one that concludes with Star Trek VI, a movie that I feel only gets more radical with every year that passes and every rewatch I give it. Kirk’s realization that he has to let go of all the pain and anger in that movie and allow the world to move on and healing to begin is, when you get down to it, maybe the most optimistic and important message the franchise has ever really tried to express, and if this episode exists as a “middle chapter” between the war itself and that eventual endpoint…well…I can work with it as that middle chapter. But I still feel pretty crummy about it.

    const_void ,
    @const_void@lemmy.world avatar

    I agree with you. However I see the Klingon as the ray of hope in this story.

    Even if the Klingon’s diplomat status was built on a lie, unless something else reveals new information, the Klingon was dealing with his role in his past war crimes in a positive fashion.

    This episode has highlighted how shady Benga has been for quite a well, from his daughter on in. Nurse Chapel walks the gray line as well. I do like him as a character and the idea of a murderous “Frank Castle, CMO” is hmmm some good stuff.

    I liked the look Spock shot Chapel when she said “you feel like” and he was like … umm … surely you jest…and let it go. Very cool! And great Vulcan logic in this ep.

    shirro , (edited )

    It is great to see characters who were undeveloped in TOS get fleshed out. The characters feel real and motivated by their history. It beats interpersonal drama designed purely to create conflict within the crew.

    I know Orville was widely disliked by critics for uneven tone because they wanted to shove it in a pigeon hole but variety is where episodal tv really shines. I don’t think Orville did this as effortlessly as SNW is currently doing but it had its moments. Given the substantial departure from Discovery and Picard I wonder if Lower Decks or SNW could have existed in Kurtzman’s Star Trek without MacFarlane showing there was still demand.

    I hope they use the release of inhibitions in the musical episode to delve into the inner thoughts and feelings of some of the characters as they did in Buffy’s Once More With Feeling. The characters revealed a hell of a lot in that episode. It would be a waste to back off after this episode and not use what on the surface looks like a lightweight episode to dig deeper.

    Hogger85b ,

    yeah, they used the Lower decks crossover to great affect to hint spock future and crush Chapel's dreams

    Poggervania ,
    @Poggervania@kbin.social avatar

    Man, this had some serious Apocalypse Now kind of vibes. M'benga's heart was touched by the darkness of war, and he couldn't let go of it long after the war was over.

    Ending was kind of lame, but I think it's also sort-of in line with Pike as a captain - he's a great diplomat and will always side with his officers, almost to a fault. The ending was one of the times where Pike was himself to a fault. Hopefully Star Fleet either somehow calls it out or throws M'benga under the bus for something.

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