Not really. Its trees from a time before micro organisms evolved the ability to eat dead trees. These days, the solar energy collected by trees will get used to power the metabolisms of fungi before those trees can get buried and eventually become new coal & petroleum.
I suppose an impact from a sufficiently large asteroid could turn the entire crust of the planet into magma, sterilizing it and therefore opening the possibility that new oil might be created some day.
I think I read somewhere that oil will not be produced anymore because now bacteria can break down that biomass that it previously didn't. Hence, non-renewable even on long timescales.
If you're making your diesel from CO2 pulled from the air, pollution aspects don't really apply (at least, CO2 emission issues don't, there's still NOx, but that's what cat piss is for).
Problem is, converting atmospheric CO2 back into fuel makes the efficiency issue drastically worse. Maybe with enough solar panels and windmills, and use the Fischer–Tropsch process with the excess energy that the grid isn't consuming.
Of course, that would be for mobile fuel, if solar plants were going to do anything like that for later use generating electricity during peaks, making diesel is dumb; you'd want to use hydrogen or ammonia for in-place energy storage.
Ah. I'm generally skeptical of any plant-based 'green fuel' because they generally take up agricultural capacity that would otherwise be producing food
Energy density is a huge advantage which most people find hard to give up especially when the biggest problem that we face is invisible to most people. We can't fix a problem if we ignore the cause.
oops you posted irrelevant pedantics that verge on misinformation 😧
sure it’s distilled solar energy that cannot be renewed. relevant language highligted. no one “forgets,” this. literally no one. it’s just not relevant to a timespan less than millions of years. cheers! ☀️
Biofuels are carbon-neutral. They release CO2 when burned, but it doesn't matter because that same CO2 had recently been sucked out of the atmosphere by the plant they came from.
While U.S. biofuel use rose from 0.37 to 1.34 EJ/yr over this period, additional carbon uptake on cropland was enough to offset only 37 % of the biofuel-related biogenic CO2emissions. This result falsifies the assumption of a full offset made by LCA and other GHG accounting methods that assume biofuel carbon neutrality. Once estimates from the literature for process emissions and displacement effects including land-use change are considered, the conclusion is that U.S. biofuel use to date is associated with a net increase rather than a net decrease in CO2emissions. study
Not passing judgement on anything, just putting the facts out there that I happen to know :) Biofuel may or may not be a good tool to move toward more sustainability, and it’s certainly better than petrol.
My biofuel of choice is biodiesel produced from byproducts of chicken rendering that would otherwise become waste/pollution anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The way I see it, we should electrify all the things that can be (urban driving, both freight and passenger trains, etc.), maximize the use of those things (e.g. by shifting long-haul freight away from trucking and back towards rail, and shifting airline travel to high-speed rail), and then use biofuels for the relatively-niche stuff that's left instead of spending excessive effort trying to get electric to cover 100% of cases.
Um piss off. It is not irrelevant or misinformation. That is exactly what petroleum is.
You clearly can't understand a factual statement from an opinion I never said it was good I never said it was bad I just said it was. If you'd bother to take a moment to think about it. You would realize that I was referring to the fact that petroleum is extremely energy dense. For the very reason I stated. That is fundamentally why petroleum has become a successful energy source and why it's been so difficult to replace.
You're welcome to point out where I said it was renewable. I think you're going to have a difficult time finding that statement.
As for being a pedantic ass that's clearly your territory. A pedantic ass that it likes to put words in other people's mouths.
Your post was bordering on irrelevant to the original comment. In light of that the information you provided can really only be interpreted is as pro-fossil fuel.
Exactly this. Imagine if gas powered motor could recharge in mere 12 hours and run for up to half the distance. Ah, that would be the dream.
And if you and 5 of your neighbors decide to refuel at the same time during peak hours you have a real chance of overloading your neighborhood grid. And your fuel tank is dead in 5 years, replacing which is more than half of your used cars cost.
Everything non-portable uses electric motors from the time the first wire was invented.
I can. Electric car batteries last 10+ years, often longer than the body work of the car. Lookup Lithium Iron Phosphate, this has around 5-10x the cycle life of conventional lithium batteries. Combine this with the complex heating and cooling systems, battery and charging management in modern EVs and you have something that lasts as long or longer than even a diesel engine.
Cell phone batteries die quickly because both their construction and the way they are managed favour capacity, cost, and charging speed over longevity. Car battery design is much more focused on longevity by comparison. They are also cycled more often and more completely than most EVs.
Grid issues are a real problem. Cars can be used to make this worse or better depending on how they are deployed. If they are charged during peak energy production from solar they can actually help rather than hurt the grid.
You can also rapid charge a car in like 30 minutes. You don't need 12 hours.
I suspect people just assumed you were the same person who wrote the sarcastic comment before the one you replied to and that you were just being combative
My up! can get about 260 miles out of its 30ish liter tank. That is about 1/3rd more than a new leaf. Hardly half the distance.
The electric grid will be fine. This is not the first time it's expanded because of new technological demand. And I've never heard of 5 EVs overloading the grid.
And if the person above could read they'd see that all of these are battery problems, something the original comment said we should have put our focus improving on long ago.
Edit: I'll just add that I love my ICE cars as much as the next petrol head, but the future is electric cars for at least daily driving. We've pretty much perfected combustion engines at this point. F1 engines sit around 50% thermal efficiency, and we're not gonna get any meaningful amount above that (but I will be happy if it turns out I'll have to eat my hat in the future). I just hope petrol engines don't become banned in the future for the enthusiasts.
No, you see, that's not how it works. The battery needs to be filled to 100%, just like a gas tank. And you should only ever charge once you're under 10-20%, just like a gas tank (it's silly to top up every day, that's just a waste of time). We must be able to exactly replicate the current paradigm for people to be able to adjust.
I drive about 150 miles a week and get gas every couple of weeks. It takes 5 minutes. If I have to go to a charger I'll be there for hours. It's absurd.
When you look at fueleconomy.gov you will see that the furthest a compact ev can go is 149 miles while the furthest a ice compact car can go is 594 miles
According to motor trend DC charging is the fastest way to charge your EV and it still takes just under two hours
Couldn't find a source that studied how long a ice takes to recharge but considering how ices are currently extremely common you can easily test that yourself and probably already know it's so quick you don't even think about it
According to car and driver those lithium ion batteries you mentioned while yes they can last a decade most cars typically stay on the road for give or take 30-35 years and lithium ion batteries are inherently expensive and prone to thermal cascading ie catching fire also full charge and depletion wears the battery down over time
You have all kinds of nonsense in your post. Like you limit it to just compact cars for no reason. When you don't limit it to just compact cars then you get EVs with 516 mile range
There are use cases for battery trains. In remote, mountainous locations where the cost for electrifying a track is very high it is not uncommon to use electric trains with batteries. Here in Germany we have several regions where diesel trains have been replaced by them.
Not really. Battery tech has always been advancing. Even today electric vehicles have barely come up with anything new, battery wise. Everyone wants something better than lithium base. No one can get anything to market.
It advanced at a glacier pace because there was no massive driving force. It only kicked off a bit with cell phones and then in any substantial way with laptops. (Yes, batteries existed before that for different things, but there was no massive driving force.) Now imagine what would have happened if we funded it starting in the 1970s.
Yes, but no one's even glancing at it for use in vehicles. The one that's finally getting into production is 70wh/Kg. Not nearly energy dense enough yet for ev's. Lithium batteries are closer to 300wh/Kg. In other words, they take up 1/4th the space and weight. EV's are already a thousand pounds heavier than non ev's and that's already causing extra tire pollution issues and having to overbuild suspension parts and bearings. Making them another 3,000 pounds heavier than that is just out of the question. Let alone making the space to fit the battery.
Sodium is going to change the world with its power storage capabilities connected to solar.
Anyone on like 75% of the planet could 100% live off the electric grid problem free with enough solar panels and a big sodium storage battery.
Yep. A size of vehicle wise comparison would be that a tesla model s sedan weighs around 4,600 pounds. A toyota Corolla weighs around 1,600 pounds less at around 3,000 pounds.
Even the newest and most powerful mass produced American made car ever, the "C8 Corvette Z06" with its big V8 gas engine with 670 horsepower weighs in at around 3,650 pounds.
Oil is honestly an amazing product, chemistry wise there is so much we can do with it and energy wise it's a extremely concentrated and easily transported form of energy.
Energy wise one liter of oil is equivalent to 10 person working for a day !
I repeat, using one liter of oil is like having 10 "slaves" working for us for a day.
Its easy to see why oil became the base of our modern civilization, and easy to see why we don't manage to stop using it even though it's destroying us.
pretty sure most trains are powered by either overhead wires or third rails? considering that urban rail systems are always electrified and those have A LOT of trains.
The point is about utilization of electric motors, if it happens anywhere on earth it's possible. You're trying to insinuate that it isn't true. And it is. Being American has nothing to do with you dunce
Armchair pseudo-scientific thinking like this was why Mythbusters became so popular. They even devoted at least one episode to this very myth. Spoiler, hydrogen wasn't what made that particular lead ballon unsafe.
I don't think airship travel is viable due to inability to properly steer them outside of very specific conditions, regardless of the filling. I would love to be proven wrong if it were somehow economic for shipping, but I have no high expectations.
it's normally upper managers sand baging. Everytime we have a new product they don't involve anyone later stages in pipeline and keep the engineering team in a sealed space lab IN Mars. Then release the product half baked because the eng team quit or got dissolved to work on other more important projects. Then demand the sustainability team to develop it. So now it's in limbo for 2 years but noo we must go to market now. Now it's all trash but marketing cleans it's image.
Never fails to happen.
Worst is new management come and say new product v2 but we are doing it all from scratch and ignore previous team mistakes. Like why?
I hear this complaint a lot about charging times, but for 99.99% of people they are never in a single day going to drive beyond their cars range, meaning even a standard level 1 slow charger over night at home can manage their entire car usage.
It's only people doing long distance road trips that have to worry, and that's by far a minimum. Instead of boosting gas cars for that we could be looking at investing in rail so people don't have to make the longer trips in a car anyway.
Not only that, people going on those long trips are going to be looking for something to eat in a similar time frame that their EV takes to fully discharge. It takes EVs about 15-20 minutes to get from 0-80% charge. That's less time than it takes to sit down and eat at a restaurant
I rarely go inside restaurants to eat on a long trip. I grab a burger and wolf it down and go again. I eat the fries while I'm driving and they're gone in an instant, and i'm still going.
This is incredibly short sighted. I usually bring my own food on a long trip because I dislike stopping or buying crappy food. I eat while driving on long road trips because I have a schedule and want to get where I'm going. My gas car gets double the range of an electric car, so I'm stopping less often as well. I'm often in places where getting gas or food isn't within an hour's drive, and almost none of those places have the ability to charge a vehicle anyway.
Look, everyone has different use cases. I think electric cars for the in-city drive around town use case are great, and we should continue to encourage their use. I'm just saying that for wider adoption we're going to have to solve the charge rate, range, and charger accessibility issues.
And for about 50% of Americans, they don't have a place to plug in an electric car at night. It's only people above a certain level of wealth who have the luxury of their own parking space with a charger.
For the rest of us, we must take time out of our day to sit in a grocery store parking lot while the car charges.
EVs generally have adapters that allow you to plug into a standard home outlet, it's just significantly slower to charge to full due to the lower amperages. And even if you only have 1 plug in your garage, it's not hard or expensive to add more.
The only real hurdle for that is if you rent a house and aren't allowed to make those easy changes
99.99% of people they are never in a single day going to drive beyond their cars range, meaning even a standard level 1 slow charger over night at home can manage their
You're saying 1 in 10,000 people will never drive more than ~200 miles in a single day? What country is that statistic for? Source?
I love the idea of rail, but it doesn't work in large spread out countries like where I live. Sure cities can be connected, and we should definitely do that, but the idea that I could get to all the natural and wild places I love in this beautiful country by taking mass transit is impossible.
The point is that, for most journeys, you just charge at home overnight. It's rare to plug in and wait for it to charge. With petrol / gas, you always have to wait
I don't know what to do with you people.... We both have 5km range left. You plug in the cable juice and I plug in the gas to refuel. Who leaves the station first?
So your electric car has more range than a similarly sized gas car? Unlikely.
Given both vehicles start at "full", drive until you have low range left. Now talk about convenience of filling up in the middle of nowhere, or when in a hurry.
Is this use case common for everyone? Definitely not, but I run into it a few times a month.
So you admit you are talking about edge cases. This is why no-one cares what you think. You are arguing for slower, less efficient, more polluting vehicles just cos it'll save a few minutes on a long run. Get outta here. Jokes.
I'm talking about millions of occurrences of this edge case a day.
I'm not sure what you're trying to fight. I said multiple times that we should continue to encourage and expand our use of electric vehicles. But to blindly fanboy electric cars without being able to honestly admit that we have some improvements to make just makes you stupid and smug.
They don't mention it in the video because they could get in trouble but best estimates for how long they had been driving 360 miles for is 5 hours and on the Porsche it shows a drive time of ten hours. That's well into take a proper break from driving time. 45mins every 4.5hrs for a total of 9 is considered safe with some extra hour extensions.
"when you are empty, and you have to drive right away, its faster to refuel your car with petrol"
My relatives dont have a charger at home, they just plug their car into an outlet, and get ~40km range over night. That more than enough for the daily commute.
And my relatives don't have personal parking spots.
Poor people's time gets no respect, because the rules are made by rich people with tons of time conveniences and they just aren't conscious of how the other half lives.
They ban our shopping bags, failing to realize that for someone with a car and a garage, a disposable plastic shopping bag doesn't have much utility over re-usable bags, or dispsable paper bags. But for a person with no car and no garage, a disposable plastic shopping bag means they can carry like three in each hand and walk miles home in foul weather.
And if you want to just bring bags with you in advance, you gotta carry them with you all day.
It's doable, don't get me wrong. But it's more of a hassle. And the amount of hassle that it adds is far greater for poor people.
I rent a car for Uber. I'm working up to buying a car, but until I do I have to rent. Uber has decreed that all rentals must be electrics. To save the planet. The electrics cost about $100 more per week to rent than the gas cars did, and as a poor person I can't charge them at home because all I have is street parking.
This means that every day I work driving for Uber, I have to stop about once a day to charge the car. So that's about $25 a day I'm losing to charge instead of refuel my vehicle, so $125 a week I'm losing and then the other $100 per week it costs because it's a special car, I'm losing $225 per week due to this decision.
So I'm doing my part, but unwillingly. And I strongly, strongly suspect that the people who made this decision at Uber, that their contribution to climate action was going to come out of my cut, didn't think the cut would be so big because they live in houses or in fancy apartment buildings with chargers.
I just feel like nobody talks about how time poor poor people are. We lack time just as much as we lack money, and when we get new rules imposed on us that take up more of our time to comply with, the people creating the rules don't realize how must time it's costing us, because their own lives are relatively time rich. Many of the forms of their wealth come in the form of time conveniences, and those change the equation. They think the electric car's hassle consists of having to charge it occasionally on long trips, because they have a home charger.
Just across the board, we need to be aware of the time cost of these changes, and also to be aware that the time cost is often many times higher for poor people than it is for middle class people.
Overnight isn't "right away".
"I have to get to y right away!" "Sure! I'll just charge the car and you can leave tomorrow!".
Listen, I'm not saying that EVs are shit but they are currently not my cup of tea. It's just all this BS. Of course it's faster to refuel a car with petrol than to charge a battery. Would you also deny that it's faster for me to fill up a glass of water than you charging your phone?
I ENVY the great fuel economy that EV owners get. This sucks for petrol cars.
Lv 1 charges are pretty shitty...takes my car about 12 minutes to get a mile-worth of charge on a 120v. I could still make it through a week of commuting doing that, but my range was a little lower each day until the weekend when I didn't have to commute. That being said, I ponied up for a 220v outlet in the garage, and the Lv 2 charging is much better. Takes about 15 minutes to recharge from a days-worth of driving (usually 30-40 miles between work and running the kids around to all their activities).
How much did the 220 outlet and the L2 charger cost to put in? Was it a turnkey thing from an electrician or something or were you able to do it yourself?
I had to get an electrician to come run the 220 line for me because I don't trust myself with high voltage electrical work. Bought the charger itself on Amazon for around $300. I installed that part myself. Wasn't too hard, basically jist mounted the converter to the wall and plugged it in.
Driving to work 110 miles a day meant I had to get gas once per week, driving out of my way, stopping to get gas cost me 500 minutes per year as opposed to the two seconds to plug in at home. Totally a no brainer. I HATED stopping for gas on the way home from work at 11 in the evening, or whatever hour really. I think of people tied to ICE engines the way people were tied to outhouses a hundred years ago.
My EV sits in the driveway and soaks up excess production from my PV setup.
My main problem is it's never really empty enough.
If I'm on the road, a high voltage DC charger gets me from 10% to 50% in about 10 minutes. Barely enough time for a coffee and a leak, then it's another 2 hours of driving. Rinse, repeat.
Sure, you can't barrel down the Autobahn for 10 hours straight without stopping but who wants that?
I make a 9-10 hour drive to see my family multiple times a year. I normally stop twice to get gas and use the bathroom, and that's it. Sounds like you'd be adding most of an hour to my travel time each way. I've tried stopping longer and grabbing food, it's not worth it for me.
With that said, I drive 25-40 miles a day the other 360+ days of the year, so it'd really make much more sense for me to have a short range EV and rent something for travel when I have too much luggage to fly.
But much better for the environment, sometimes others matter more and when more people use rail it's more likely our country will catch up and build hyper train networks.
I'm glad you think I can afford to triple my rent, but that's not happening.
Edit: If you mean the road trip scenario, my family works in various different industries, and the opportunities are better in different cities. That's also not happening.
I do. We have family that we visit a few times each year. If I leave at 2am and drive straight through, we get there in 7-8 hours. If I make the drive during the day, it takes 10-13 hours.
Some real examples that are specific to the trip I take:
There is no rail service that goes there. It would be a combo of trains and busses that takes significantly longer and costs more than the gas.
Our dog comes with us, generally isn't allowed on mass transit, and the much longer trip would stress her out if she was.
There is little to no mass transit in the town they live in to get around once we arrive so we'd end up borrowing or renting a car anyway.
With limited amounts of time off, making the trip overnight adds a full day of getting to see our family to the trip.
The only other realistic means of getting there is flying but, I enjoy driving and hate everything about air travel. It's a pretty cheap flight for one person but becomes more expensive once you add in the rest of the family and the dog can't come.
Why on earth do you get down votes? This is the truth. Downvoters just straw man argue pointing out that 'just charge your car at home', which isn't the matter of discussion. There isn't even a discussion to be had - it is faster to refuel a car than recharge. Might this matter to you? Maybe, maybe not.
That just isn't true, you just said you could ride a train. You choose not to, that's a big difference.
But saying rail is significantly slower you narrow your nationality to maybe 5 major nations one happens to be significantly more represented on Lemmy. The "need" to drive safe over reaction to the guess means I'm almost certainly correct. Am I not?
Tbf to the guy you're responding to, getting the extra 2-3 days of PTO necessary to take the train may also be a contributing factor. There's a hidden work reform issue baked into this that also needs addressing.
An optional "profession" that steals money from qualified taxis and is also super abusive towards its employees. That's not an excuse, that's an explanation an kinda of a bad one at that.
An optional "profession" that steals money from qualified taxis
It's not stealing if it doesn't take it out of their wallet. Maybe the issue is instead the expensive restrictions on becoming a taxi driver? Or the virtual monopoly many taxi companies have. Or just that almost always a taxi is a worse experience.
That's literally what it does. Taxis didn't have monopoly, they have a licensed job specifically because unlicensed taxis were dangerous and people at the time were getting shanghaied.
Radio is licensed to transmit at certain levels on certain frequencies, Spotify does not transmit in open air.
Point to where I said it was happening. I said taxis were licensed because of crazy shit like rapists driving people to word places and having at. You don't get that with Uber.
You suggested it as if from my interpretation it was a problem with Uber. If not, what is? And again, how's it any more theft than CDs stealing from record manufacturers
It is, no one checks to see if your driver is a multiple murderer, serial rapist and yes for reference incidents of rape from unlicensed taxis such as Uber and Lyft and much much higher than with medallioned taxis.
This is a bit inaccurate. What about truck drivers? They are extra shitty then. But they wouldn't be extra shitty if they didn't deliver your Charmin to Costco for you to purchase.
Short range point to point trucking (day trucking) is necessary, pretty much any other truckload is better taken by rail both faster and cheaper in countries other than the US because oil companies didn't intentionally kneecap American rail.
If it’s not a concern for my phone, why should it be for my vehicle? It is so nice never having to go to a local gas station, when all I need to do is plug in at night
They still are…cars. We don’t need no more cars on our streets. Yeah, they could help to replace some old combustion cars but they still are worse than public transport and bicycles.
That's the problem, only switching the transportation method isn't enough, there's a whole infrastructure behind that needs to be built.
In most city centers you can kinda refurbish pre-existing systems, but in suburbs you need to build from scratch, and the distances are way bigger which imposes another challenge.
Don't get me wrong, im all for it, but we need to acknowledge these problems first.
Suburbs are intentionally designed to not be walkable.
To get to the neighbor behind my house, without cutting anybody's yard, I have to walk about a mile. We aren't far. His daughters play with my sons through our shared fence.
And that's a modest example. Plenty of cul de sacs that are "close" to the main street, as a crow flies but a lot further if you're an East Asian Chinchilla Monkey running as fast as you can.
Love it or hate it, they aren't intentionally designed not to be walkable, they're intentionally designed to discourage traffic from driving through them.
The reason communities like yours and the one behind your house aren't connected is to reduce the amount of cars driving down your block. To make it safer for your kids to play outside.
Yeah, unfortunately the Levitt-town style of suburbs (which are all that's allowed to be built nowadays) are largely incompatible with public transport. We need to fix zoning laws to allow pre-war style suburbs to be built again to make public transport feasible. And all of this will take awhile to fix
Interesting, just read the guardian article, I do think that probably if the ICE fires are less reported that does mean their less bad. But regardless yeah, that is interesting
I live in a city where electric vehicles are at least 10% of the cars on the road. I have yet to see an electric vehicle fire, even on the news.
You are accurate. What are the practical consequences?
Gas station fires are devastating. I have not seen one of those locally either so I am not selling my gas guzzler to prevent gas station fires. There are bigger problems.
As the owner of a Bolt, the only significant criticism is range (mine's a 2020, gets ~180mi comfortably on the interstate) and charging rate (2020 bolts are limited to 50 kW, so kinda specific). Not great for road trips, but otherwise fantastic. As for electric fires... yeah I wasn't gonna be able to put that out anyway so the firefolk have it either way.
There are other electric cars on the market that get 2 ton3 times the range and 4 or 5 times the charging rate.
If you charge at home, it is already possible to have an electric vehicle where “refueling” is something you just don’t worry about 98% of the time. You just drive and the car goes as far as you want to go before you get home again. For longer trips, charging can happen in as little time as it takes to grab a bite, hit the washroom, and stretch your legs. You often have multiple charge stations to choose from so it is easy to pick one next to the amenities you want ( like food ).
Range anxiety” is becoming more something you need to worry about in your gas vehicle if you let the tank get low and are about to get on a highway where the next station is not for a while.
It is, definitely. We own our home and leave it on the level 1 charger all the time. It gets us around the metro just fine, no long commutes so it's great for us. And as someone mentioned somewhere around here, a longer charge time isn't necessarily bad if you're the only driver on long trips. I'm honestly more worried about having to stop in areas with only a couple chargers (Midwest here) and some asshole vandalizing them and leaving me stranded. But that's a concern that pops up once or twice a year at best. And the various charger apps are pretty good a letting you know they're down.
I do the same, metro commuting and a short trip to visit family (~50 miles each way) every couple weeks or so. I don't even have to plug in every time I get home, I only need to make sure I am charged up at least to 75% for the family visit. Level 1 charging is more than sufficient, I've only ever used a charging station just to see what it's like and try to use up some credit I got for them through my dealership.
For those without EVs: level 1 charging is just plugging into a standard 120V outlet. I have no special equipment at home, though I did need to confirm my breaker could handle it. For my 2023 Bolt EUV I charge about 1% per hour on the reduced charge setting (8 amps). If I do need to charge a little faster I can swap it to 12 amps, but I typically don't need to do that.
Yeah I rented a Mustang Mach-E and drove between Houston, Austin, Dallas, and back to Houston, without very much charger anxiety. And not being confined to a slow charger...except on the way back to the airport. The first charger I found was a slow charger and all the fast ones were occupied. But still had plenty of charge to find the next station and get it high enough to return
Different for many people. For us it is that we live in an urban area parking on the street and charging it, even with the faster chargers nowadays, just doesn't fit into our schedule. We'd have to cut working hours if we'd want to get an EV. But other people have other problems with them
Luckily me and the children can completly get around by public transportation, scooters and bicycles. My wife cannot (for now at least). So, at least we only have one car for the 4 ouf us.
But I already know that you'll belittle out problems and come up with half assed solution (yes I know we can charge while shopping, but we walk to the supermarket). I had this discussion often with EV fanatics. Please spare me.
"I can't charge at home" should be an easy way to shut down an EV evangelist. That should be a "get out of conversation free" card.
I say that as an EV evangelist myself, and I lived a few years in a condo with an EV and no EV charging in the garage (and adding charging was going to be cost prohibitive if even possible at all due to already crowded infrastructure). It sucked and ain't nobody got time for that.
Yeah, but that is only in London and only 1300 street lights. Once they've done 10+ million of those in the whole of the UK this might get interesting. And it will still be much more expensive to habe an EV for people who cannot charge at home.
Sadly they haven't even started with that here in Germany. And tbh, I am quite annoyed by this. They keep blowing money into the assess of suburbanites, but completly ignore urban people. Thus subsidizing infrastructure wasting sprawling even more.
I feel like this is directed towards ICE vs EV cars. If that's the case, it's sort of frustrating.
EVs have some very real drawbacks. Even if those drawbacks are solvable problems, they are still problems right now. Pushing this narrative that EVs are universally better or that the biggest hurdle to adoption is irrational consumer sentiment will just make people feel gaslit. It'll also make people more hesitant to adopt later on, because they'll be skeptical of positive reviews that are honest.
Battery cost pushing up vehicle cost, battery replacement cost, battery weight, low battery energy density, batteries that only last half of a car lifespan of 20 years.
We need much better batteries.
For now, plug in Hybrids are a good way to avoid many of these problems.
I agree. ICE vehicles usually have more range, fuel is basically available everywhere, they take minutes to fill, and generally have a cheaper initial cost.
In addition to that, ICE cars, though needing more maintenance, have repair shops in just about every village, town, city.... often several of them.
I feel like EVs are a bit of a glass cannon when it comes to anything that might go wrong with them. Whatever goes wrong is very likely to cause the vehicle to stop operation entirely. Most ICE cars will either just keep working when something is wrong, or at worst go into a limp mode, allowing you to get to a repair shop to have the vehicle repaired.
I understand why EVs are the way they are, high voltage electricity is no joke, but then you need a tow truck to get to the service center that's likely much further away.
EVs are great, don't get me wrong, but if you're planning for the worst case and/or failure cases, ICE vehicles just fail more gradually, frequently giving you some leeway to take care of the problem well before the vehicle completely stops working.
EVs are also a major issue for firefighters. Lithium ion battery fires following an accident are ridiculously hard to put out and present a significant safety hazard in confined spaces, like tunnels or narrow streets. It takes close to 6 times the water to control EV vehicle fires.
And while it's a more minor issue, EVs are heavier than ICE vehicles in the same class, which causes more road wear and more tire wear (and more micro plastics to enter the environment).
And, I guess, finally, there's no established break-even point for carbon emissions over ICE vehicles. The estimates provided in the literature vary wildly--from 13,000 miles to 94,000.
I love the technology, but I hope solid state batteries become a viable option for EVs.
And while it's a more minor issue, EVs are heavier than ICE vehicles in the same class, which causes more road wear and more tire wear (and more micro plastics to enter the environment).
Easy solution is to move to Indiana. Our environment means that almost every day from November through April, the temperatures will be in the 30s-50s in the day and 10-20 at night, so the pavement is constantly cracking. Combine that with the lack of investment in infrastructure (Indy literally has a ban on new streetlights and stop lights going back to the 80s) and it doesn't matter how heavy the car is, the pavement will be just as broken.
which causes more road wear and more tire wear (and more micro plastics
I’ll buy more tire wear and microplastics, but argue the reduction in carbon emissions still makes it a better choice. However I don’t think there’s a noticeable difference in road wear. We’ve all heard the claim that road wear increases dramatically with weight, but compared to large trucks, EVs are still in the category of “close to zero”
no established break-even point for carbon emissions over ICE vehicles. The estimates… vary wildly–from 13,000 miles to 94,000.
I once read an article that I wish I kept, that addressed this (for US) by calculating per state, based on each state’s typical energy portfolio. While you’d really need your local energy portfolio, state level really improved accuracy and gave something you could use.
West Virginia and Wyoming really stood out. As the two states still getting most of their electricity from coal the break-even is further out - I think it was as long as 14 years typical driving. Don’t buy an EV yet if you live in those states, unless you have solar.
Several states with more renewables or nuclear, had break-even as low as 2 years typical driving.
For most of us, the breakeven is low enough to consider the switch. It’s important to remember that electricity generation is getting cleaner all the time, even in Wyoming, so it’s quite likely the break-even point will move toward you over the years of owning a vehicle
Those drawbacks are endlessly discussed online, to a ridiculous degree. Nothing is universally better, but EVs are almost as close as it gets. If there weren't several whole industries dead set on preventing adoption they would have been adopted much quicker.
Electric vehicles a bad product for 95% of people right now. When is America just going to invest in public transportation.
Pouring billions of dollars widening highway widening projects and giving automotive companies a tax break to charge a premium on electric cars has always been idiotic.
Edit: I was never criticizing electric car owners nor do I care if it works for the specific use case of a small group of individuals. I'm glad some people are adopting a new technology for the sake of helping the environment(I don't care about individuals doing it for clout).
Most people can't even reasonably afford new cars and have an outlet to park next to at the end of the day so you're doing good so long as you plan to keep the car for at least 20,000 miles give or take to offset the carbon emissions of manufacturing the battery. Food and shelter is just more important.
Hybrids are a good stop gap until they dramatically improve battery technology and standardize parts. Plus there are plenty of used hybrids around and are just getting cheaper as more get released onto the market. Hybrids often get released at lower prices due to the cost of manufacturing battery packs.
The ability to reliably get to work and the super market shouldn't be restricted to the ones able to afford and maintain transportation but a basic right of all citizens.
What do you mean by bad for 95% of people? 95% of people drive less than 60 miles in a day. Which is something that can easily be recovered overnight with a standard 15 amp outlet not even a special dedicated charger they would have been fine with early electric vehicles much less what we have today
Pretty sure they're the type to think that if you live within a mile of someone else, any car is bad and every non-walking movement you make should be with public transit. Basically the fuckcars type.
(For the record, I get the frustration on the reliance of cars in everyday life. But the last mile problem is real and getting a practical transit option outside of moderately-sized cities is pretty much impossible)
How many of you guys live in a house you own and can install a fast charger or have reserved parking with even an outlet. How many charging stations are available on your routs. How many of those chargers don't get vandalized and the copper cables cut off with bolt cutters. How many of you guys can afford a typical EV and the cost of charging at a fast charger on your salary.
Most importantly how does it solve the issue of long distance travel, driving in cold weather with reduced range, and towing. If anyone read my post I said EVs are not ready for 95% of people yet.
Ok, so you are kinda dumb if you believe only 5% of people can pass through your scrutiny.
I charge at home. I'm fortunate enough to be a homeowner, but not top-5% fortunate. GM paid for my charger install when I bought the car, but if they hadn't it would've been about $1500 for a more complicated installation than average (circuit breaker panel is on the other side of the house). Even if I were stuck on a regular outlet, 10 hours of charging per day would get me about 35 miles nightly, or almost 13,000 miles per year. Which is about average. All that means I don't need to care about local charging, and neither do others in a similar situation to me (which, again, is not 5% of people)
The car itself (Chevy Bolt EUV) was about $35K new with bells and whistles included. That has since gone down significantly, especially on a used car. Charging cost is a laughable concern - when I charge at home, it's like paying $1/gallon for gas so I'm coming out ahead there. Happy to show you the math there. Fast charging on a road trip is a lot more expensive, but I rarely use it. I don't miss the forest for the trees, especially when it brings me roughly to gas prices anyway.
Long distance, I normally stop for food, stretching, gas, and bio breaks. It's not hard to plan so you do all those things while charging. My car can get about 150 miles of range in under an hour, and I can start full and arrive empty (charging overnight). My car is also arguably the second-worst at this, others are far better.
Cold weather is no problem when I charge at home daily. Maybe I need to spend a little more charging on a long trip in winter, but not impossibly so.
If you think 95% of people tow, that's laughable. I do, usually a rented U-Haul around town. I'll admit I have an ICE to complement my EV for long-haul towing and a few other things, but that's not because my other car is electric. It's because it's small. So many families get by just fine on Subarus and Honda Civics, because they have no need to tow or anything like that. An EV would most likely be just fine for them too.
You don't have to justify your purchase to me, just enjoy it. I never criticized anyone for owning a car.
I'm glad you're having a good experience with your car, I just find there's a lot of compromise and issues that would make it difficult or near impossible for most people to own one.
Something like plugin hybrids and regular hybrids would just be a better fit for 95% of people and public transportation would solve a lot more problems in the long run. It would definitely solve the ballooning cost of infrastructure maintenance and ever growing traffic as well as being better for small businesses.
I wasn't trying to be modest or justify my purchase, I was trying to point out that I'm a pretty normal person who wouldn't be the lucky 1 in 20 for whom an EV would make sense.
Maybe I have to charge a little more on a big road trip once or twice a year and that trip will take an hour or so longer (keeping in mind I stop for other things anyway). Over that year I've saved time in other ways by not going to the gas station or getting my oil changed (or doing it myself). Saved money that way too. Oh, and the car is a battery and a motor. There's no series of accessories given by a belt moving at 2500 RPM. There's no catalytic converter to worry about. All that's to say, less maintenance over time. No need to check emissions. The car is quiet and an absolute pleasure to drive.
I'd say having an EV works damn fine for me. The question is, why am I not part of the 95%?
Because you thought the benefits out way the downsides. The idea of a bad product is subjective and in my opinion the alternatives are just better for the vast majority of people for now.
It's will take standardization of parts and the ability for owners and mechanics to work on it, ability for third parties to produce parts, a track record that proves their claimed reliability and longevity, a more competitive market, better battery tech, more infrastructure for charging, more reliable charging and better range during the winter, etc. all that before it's suitable for more individuals in my opinion.
I still hear plenty of stories involving people trading their EVs in for a gas powerd car either before or after their lease runs up. And I've seen actual people in my life considering an EV and getting a hybrid because of this or that. There are just so many reasons it's impractical for people. It doesn't make them bad and your not wrong for owning one. They just fit your use case better than most.
And I've seen plenty of people go from a Chevy Volt (hybrid) to a Bolt (full electric). But that's not the point. None of what you said was. I told you my car has worked great for me and why, and asked why I'm not part of the 95% of people you mentioned when my life is generally pretty average. You failed to answer that pretty basic question.
I don't know why you want me to explain you and your situation. I really don't see why it would be the same as everyone elses. I'm pulling from stories, other people's experiences, studies, real world cases, the research I did when I was interested, what mechanics are saying, and so on.
Maybe it's different where you live but I come from the Midwest and many of the places I've been, what family members, neighbors, and friends think think are the same story. I really was hoping for actual substance in this conversation but seeing as it's becoming cyclical I'm going to move onto more important things and I hope you do too.
I did have one case where someone enjoyed their Tesla, he was a retired firefighter that barely drove and he liked the way it rode. He didn't know much about it though when I talked to him.
There's a ton of pretty baseless, biased, and flat out wrong anti-EV stuff out there. Don't trust everything you read on the Internet.
95% of people is a huge number. I'm harping on it because it's such a bold claim that an EV wouldn't work for such a huge number, so I'm trying to see how you can back it up.
And for the record, I live in Colorado and am from Minnesota. So I'm reasonably familiar with winter.
It pretty much boils down to living in a small town where there are no chargers and if you're renting especially there is typically no place to plug in. Also issues with not being able to make road trips that don't have chargers along the way, reduced range in cold weather, and if you need to tow it's pretty pointless in an EV.
I never said we couldn't but it's pretty impractical if it's hard to find a charger. A lot of people don't live in houses and at least where I live there is one EV charger in my town. That's one charger not a station, and the town community center shut it down because upkeep was too expensive.
I agree public transport is the better option, but electric cars are a good option for the vast majority of people as long as we're going to need cars.
I agree but if you can't park near an outlet and you have no charging stations in your town it's pretty impractical to own one. Everywhere I've lived so far that's the case for a lot of individuals. There's also issues with long trips, reduced range in cold weather, and towing being pretty much pointless in an EV.
I mean I live in America, my perspective will be American. I'd argue Americans are typically really into cars and the freedom of the open road. I mean we pretty much made electric cars popular so I don't get your point.
I don't know the state of Estonia but I do pay attention to the rest of the world. Most European countries that embrace and properly build out public transportation have happier citizens, livelier public spaces, and healthier business overall.
We can be civil, no need to be combative for no reason. If you like electric cars that's fine, I like electric cars too but we don't all live in California.
Most people live in apartments here and the only charger available was closed down because maintenance and upkeep was too much for the community center that installed it.
You live in the city? I'm just curious, I've noticed cities typically move much faster than small towns if at all. I think it's really cool you have that kind of luxury to be honest.
I live in a small town that tries to be modern but it often results in something like free wifi city wide that doesn't really work or a walking path that goes from an Indian park to the opposite side of town for some reason. The one charging station was one of those things that didn't work out but it was neat that they tried.
They are trying to lay optical fiber and trying to convince people to sign up, its super expensive compared to privately owned ISP's but better than coax I guess.
Yeah, I live in a city. In London to be more specific. But on street charging options are growing fast all over the country, you can read more here and you can find a map with all the spots there as well https://www.zap-map.com/ev-guides/on-street-charging
The idea behind on street charging is that infrastructure is already there (lamp posts, etc), adding charging points is relatively cheap and that will generate additional income for the local councils. So it's a win-win for everyone.
That's neat! I think having the ability to charge outside of your apartment/work would be a huge help for people interested. I still think public transportation, bike paths, and walking paths done right is better but cars that polute less is a good step towards the right direction.
It's personal preference but I still think hybrids and plugin hybrids are better for most people, at least until electric cars improve.
I think there was a Renault that worked like this. I think the main issue is that you need a decently sized battery that can supply enough power or else the ICE needs to start every time you hit the gas pedal like was the case with the older Prius models and then you might as well connect it to the wheels and you can have a smaller electric motor.
But batteries keep improving and you can pull more power per kWh now. Maybe with solid state batteries this power train could become the more affordable option.
Hybrid cars were a topic in germany a few years ago. Laws provided funding for them too (grouped as EVs), despite their huge weight and low efficiency. I think it was solved since then?
Yes! It could be like Assassin's Creed where most of the story takes place in Civilization, but then there are interludes that take place in the modern world.
xkcd
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