Electric vehicles a bad product for 95% of people right now. When is America just going to invest in public transportation.
Pouring billions of dollars widening highway widening projects and giving automotive companies a tax break to charge a premium on electric cars has always been idiotic.
Edit: I was never criticizing electric car owners nor do I care if it works for the specific use case of a small group of individuals. I'm glad some people are adopting a new technology for the sake of helping the environment(I don't care about individuals doing it for clout).
Most people can't even reasonably afford new cars and have an outlet to park next to at the end of the day so you're doing good so long as you plan to keep the car for at least 20,000 miles give or take to offset the carbon emissions of manufacturing the battery. Food and shelter is just more important.
Hybrids are a good stop gap until they dramatically improve battery technology and standardize parts. Plus there are plenty of used hybrids around and are just getting cheaper as more get released onto the market. Hybrids often get released at lower prices due to the cost of manufacturing battery packs.
The ability to reliably get to work and the super market shouldn't be restricted to the ones able to afford and maintain transportation but a basic right of all citizens.
What do you mean by bad for 95% of people? 95% of people drive less than 60 miles in a day. Which is something that can easily be recovered overnight with a standard 15 amp outlet not even a special dedicated charger they would have been fine with early electric vehicles much less what we have today
Pretty sure they're the type to think that if you live within a mile of someone else, any car is bad and every non-walking movement you make should be with public transit. Basically the fuckcars type.
(For the record, I get the frustration on the reliance of cars in everyday life. But the last mile problem is real and getting a practical transit option outside of moderately-sized cities is pretty much impossible)
How many of you guys live in a house you own and can install a fast charger or have reserved parking with even an outlet. How many charging stations are available on your routs. How many of those chargers don't get vandalized and the copper cables cut off with bolt cutters. How many of you guys can afford a typical EV and the cost of charging at a fast charger on your salary.
Most importantly how does it solve the issue of long distance travel, driving in cold weather with reduced range, and towing. If anyone read my post I said EVs are not ready for 95% of people yet.
Ok, so you are kinda dumb if you believe only 5% of people can pass through your scrutiny.
I charge at home. I'm fortunate enough to be a homeowner, but not top-5% fortunate. GM paid for my charger install when I bought the car, but if they hadn't it would've been about $1500 for a more complicated installation than average (circuit breaker panel is on the other side of the house). Even if I were stuck on a regular outlet, 10 hours of charging per day would get me about 35 miles nightly, or almost 13,000 miles per year. Which is about average. All that means I don't need to care about local charging, and neither do others in a similar situation to me (which, again, is not 5% of people)
The car itself (Chevy Bolt EUV) was about $35K new with bells and whistles included. That has since gone down significantly, especially on a used car. Charging cost is a laughable concern - when I charge at home, it's like paying $1/gallon for gas so I'm coming out ahead there. Happy to show you the math there. Fast charging on a road trip is a lot more expensive, but I rarely use it. I don't miss the forest for the trees, especially when it brings me roughly to gas prices anyway.
Long distance, I normally stop for food, stretching, gas, and bio breaks. It's not hard to plan so you do all those things while charging. My car can get about 150 miles of range in under an hour, and I can start full and arrive empty (charging overnight). My car is also arguably the second-worst at this, others are far better.
Cold weather is no problem when I charge at home daily. Maybe I need to spend a little more charging on a long trip in winter, but not impossibly so.
If you think 95% of people tow, that's laughable. I do, usually a rented U-Haul around town. I'll admit I have an ICE to complement my EV for long-haul towing and a few other things, but that's not because my other car is electric. It's because it's small. So many families get by just fine on Subarus and Honda Civics, because they have no need to tow or anything like that. An EV would most likely be just fine for them too.
You don't have to justify your purchase to me, just enjoy it. I never criticized anyone for owning a car.
I'm glad you're having a good experience with your car, I just find there's a lot of compromise and issues that would make it difficult or near impossible for most people to own one.
Something like plugin hybrids and regular hybrids would just be a better fit for 95% of people and public transportation would solve a lot more problems in the long run. It would definitely solve the ballooning cost of infrastructure maintenance and ever growing traffic as well as being better for small businesses.
I wasn't trying to be modest or justify my purchase, I was trying to point out that I'm a pretty normal person who wouldn't be the lucky 1 in 20 for whom an EV would make sense.
Maybe I have to charge a little more on a big road trip once or twice a year and that trip will take an hour or so longer (keeping in mind I stop for other things anyway). Over that year I've saved time in other ways by not going to the gas station or getting my oil changed (or doing it myself). Saved money that way too. Oh, and the car is a battery and a motor. There's no series of accessories given by a belt moving at 2500 RPM. There's no catalytic converter to worry about. All that's to say, less maintenance over time. No need to check emissions. The car is quiet and an absolute pleasure to drive.
I'd say having an EV works damn fine for me. The question is, why am I not part of the 95%?
Because you thought the benefits out way the downsides. The idea of a bad product is subjective and in my opinion the alternatives are just better for the vast majority of people for now.
It's will take standardization of parts and the ability for owners and mechanics to work on it, ability for third parties to produce parts, a track record that proves their claimed reliability and longevity, a more competitive market, better battery tech, more infrastructure for charging, more reliable charging and better range during the winter, etc. all that before it's suitable for more individuals in my opinion.
I still hear plenty of stories involving people trading their EVs in for a gas powerd car either before or after their lease runs up. And I've seen actual people in my life considering an EV and getting a hybrid because of this or that. There are just so many reasons it's impractical for people. It doesn't make them bad and your not wrong for owning one. They just fit your use case better than most.
And I've seen plenty of people go from a Chevy Volt (hybrid) to a Bolt (full electric). But that's not the point. None of what you said was. I told you my car has worked great for me and why, and asked why I'm not part of the 95% of people you mentioned when my life is generally pretty average. You failed to answer that pretty basic question.
I don't know why you want me to explain you and your situation. I really don't see why it would be the same as everyone elses. I'm pulling from stories, other people's experiences, studies, real world cases, the research I did when I was interested, what mechanics are saying, and so on.
Maybe it's different where you live but I come from the Midwest and many of the places I've been, what family members, neighbors, and friends think think are the same story. I really was hoping for actual substance in this conversation but seeing as it's becoming cyclical I'm going to move onto more important things and I hope you do too.
I did have one case where someone enjoyed their Tesla, he was a retired firefighter that barely drove and he liked the way it rode. He didn't know much about it though when I talked to him.
There's a ton of pretty baseless, biased, and flat out wrong anti-EV stuff out there. Don't trust everything you read on the Internet.
95% of people is a huge number. I'm harping on it because it's such a bold claim that an EV wouldn't work for such a huge number, so I'm trying to see how you can back it up.
And for the record, I live in Colorado and am from Minnesota. So I'm reasonably familiar with winter.
It pretty much boils down to living in a small town where there are no chargers and if you're renting especially there is typically no place to plug in. Also issues with not being able to make road trips that don't have chargers along the way, reduced range in cold weather, and if you need to tow it's pretty pointless in an EV.
I never said we couldn't but it's pretty impractical if it's hard to find a charger. A lot of people don't live in houses and at least where I live there is one EV charger in my town. That's one charger not a station, and the town community center shut it down because upkeep was too expensive.
I agree public transport is the better option, but electric cars are a good option for the vast majority of people as long as we're going to need cars.
I agree but if you can't park near an outlet and you have no charging stations in your town it's pretty impractical to own one. Everywhere I've lived so far that's the case for a lot of individuals. There's also issues with long trips, reduced range in cold weather, and towing being pretty much pointless in an EV.
I mean I live in America, my perspective will be American. I'd argue Americans are typically really into cars and the freedom of the open road. I mean we pretty much made electric cars popular so I don't get your point.
I don't know the state of Estonia but I do pay attention to the rest of the world. Most European countries that embrace and properly build out public transportation have happier citizens, livelier public spaces, and healthier business overall.
We can be civil, no need to be combative for no reason. If you like electric cars that's fine, I like electric cars too but we don't all live in California.
Most people live in apartments here and the only charger available was closed down because maintenance and upkeep was too much for the community center that installed it.
You live in the city? I'm just curious, I've noticed cities typically move much faster than small towns if at all. I think it's really cool you have that kind of luxury to be honest.
I live in a small town that tries to be modern but it often results in something like free wifi city wide that doesn't really work or a walking path that goes from an Indian park to the opposite side of town for some reason. The one charging station was one of those things that didn't work out but it was neat that they tried.
They are trying to lay optical fiber and trying to convince people to sign up, its super expensive compared to privately owned ISP's but better than coax I guess.
Yeah, I live in a city. In London to be more specific. But on street charging options are growing fast all over the country, you can read more here and you can find a map with all the spots there as well https://www.zap-map.com/ev-guides/on-street-charging
The idea behind on street charging is that infrastructure is already there (lamp posts, etc), adding charging points is relatively cheap and that will generate additional income for the local councils. So it's a win-win for everyone.
That's neat! I think having the ability to charge outside of your apartment/work would be a huge help for people interested. I still think public transportation, bike paths, and walking paths done right is better but cars that polute less is a good step towards the right direction.
It's personal preference but I still think hybrids and plugin hybrids are better for most people, at least until electric cars improve.
I think there was a Renault that worked like this. I think the main issue is that you need a decently sized battery that can supply enough power or else the ICE needs to start every time you hit the gas pedal like was the case with the older Prius models and then you might as well connect it to the wheels and you can have a smaller electric motor.
But batteries keep improving and you can pull more power per kWh now. Maybe with solid state batteries this power train could become the more affordable option.
Hybrid cars were a topic in germany a few years ago. Laws provided funding for them too (grouped as EVs), despite their huge weight and low efficiency. I think it was solved since then?
Yes! It could be like Assassin's Creed where most of the story takes place in Civilization, but then there are interludes that take place in the modern world.
Uh, maintenance is one thing where ICE wins (until very recently, thanks fucktards in car industry). Cars have been generally very easy to work on, with anyone with a toolbox being able to do most their repairs in a shed
This isn't a function of the engine though right? Electric engines are inherently simpler and should therefore be easier to maintain (putting aside company fuckery)
High voltage is scary as fuck, but also the fact that absolutely everything from doors to gas pedal and chairs are controlled by a computer you need specialized proprietary equipment to investigate.
This is an issue with new ice cars too to be honest
EVs have a High voltage disconnect. I repaired my EV(inverter) with normal hand tools in my garage. I did have to buy a license and tool for flashing the firmware, but this is a problem in nearly every new vehicle, gas or electric.
That's a user-hostile feature, not a property of electric engines. An electric car has far simpler mechanical parts, and the circuitry isn't very complicated either. It could be made incredibly easy to repair, modify, and upgrade, mostly at home even, if they designed them that way
The reason I'm pretty much undecided about EVs is the rare metals in the batteries. The pollution by gathering and the inhumane treatment of the workers who extract these resources. I'm still hoping for better alternatives in the energy storage medium
Let's not forget that EVs are heavier than their ICE equivalent classes of vehicle, meaning they use more energy. Which is a problem because a) they store ever so much less energy, and b) they're ever so much less energy-efficient. So you need more energy to move them, and charging inefficiency mounts on top of that, but hey, at least you have shorter range!
EVs are not what is going to save the environment. Indeed depending on your source of electricity (most of the world still uses fossil fuels to generate electricity, recall!) you could well be making things worse by switching to an EV.
You know what will save the environment? Ending personal automobile ownership and instead beefing up public transportation.
This is just incorrect. Lol. While I agree with the ending. EV aren't the solution to climate change. EVs are a lot cleaner than ICE and use less energy.
EVs do not use more energy than gasoline cars, that's nonsense. The best ICE engine is ~40% efficient plus the losses from braking. Battery electric is closer to 80%. They are only around 10-15% heavier.
They're still working on this. I've more or less been holding my breath on the battery tech.
I want to see, either easily recycled materials that are common (sodium cells seem to fit here), or batteries that last the useful life of the vehicle and beyond (solid state batteries are a good example here). I don't really care which.
Cheap sodium based batteries, with adequate recycling technology would be a fine solution. Alternatively, even fairly "expensive" (in terms of rare metals) solid state batteries, would also be fine, since a single set of batteries may survive over several vehicles, depending on what solid state batteries can do when they finally hit the mass market.
I just don't want to have to replace the battery at nearly the cost of a whole ass new EV, well short of the useful life of the rest of the vehicle. Either the battery cost and environmental impact comes down, or we remove the need to replace the batteries with a version that lasts as long or longer than the rest of the vehicle.
I like EVs. I want an EV. I don't want to buy the current EVs on the market.
Also, if any vehicle designers are reading this, can we cut the shit where anything hybrid or EV looks ridiculous? IMO, a big reason why Tesla was so successful, is that they made it into a car. The model S, though unique in design, isn't a significant departure from pretty much every other sedan, in terms of design. Compare with something like the Prius, which is generally only a funny looking hatchback, or the Volt.... Which also looks pretty dumb IMO. Just give me a regular car.
... Okay, the Prius and Volt probably aren't the best examples. I'll put a better one here.... The BMW i3. Just.... What the hell.
There will always be a better choice on the horizon, but you can’t let that into delaying forever. Batteries in use right now are better the environment, even when judging by the entire lifecycle, and if sodium batteries happen, they are farther off than you’re likely to keep your vehicle. It does not pay to keep pushing it off
It pays for me to push it off. I own my car and I'm not really using it. So I pay very little in fuel and maintenance because the vehicle sits in my driveway most days.
I can afford to wait.
When the day comes that my vehicle is no longer viable, then I'll consider my options. For now, I'm happy to sit on my hands.
I work from home, and the only time I get in the car is for rare site visits for work or occasional leisure activities, like grocery shopping or running other errands.
When that time comes, I'll have to consider if I even still need a vehicle or if my SO and I should just share one.
All concerns for the future. I'm excited to see what happens with sodium and solid state over the next decade, and I have no problem waiting to see before I make any decisions about my needs. Hopefully we get some progress before I have to make that decision. I spend so little time in the car right now that it would be a shame to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a newer vehicle for it to sit in my driveway.
Fwiw mining and manufacturing isn't as bad as some people want you to believe.
About 40% of lithium comes from brine extraction. There's a lot of lithium in the ground which are dissolved in brine - a super salty solution of minerals and water. They're extracted by allowing the water to evaporate into the atmosphere and then retrieving the minerals from that.
While that "wastes" a lot of water, none of that water was usable in the first place. It's too salty for humans and would kill any plants or fish if used for crops or dumped respectively.
Another 60% comes from normal hard rock mining. This is as environmentally friendly as most mining is.
A small portion - about 2% - comes from clay mining. This is actually rather bad for the environment and results in a lot of atmospheric pollution. Fortunately, it's a small shrinking portion of total mining.
The other main minerals in li-ions are cobalt, manganese, and lithium.
A large amount of cobalt comes from artisanal mining in the Congo. Artisanal is just a fancy term that means it's not work being performed by a company at a dedicated mine, but on a small scale such as a single person digging an area and collecting it or a handful of people who run their own mine. Unfortunately, though, we know that slave and child labor are used at a large portion of these mines.
Fortunately, there has been a large push to move to more sustainable mining practices. Some Congo miners have allowed outside observers to verify that all miners are adults working of their own volition.
Other countries such as Cuba and Indonesia have begun mining cobalt and are also following minimum employment practices. As a side benefit, these mines are also the main sources for nickel which reduces the number of mines we need.
Manganese is rather interesting. The current extraction process involves using natural gas to separate the components. However, there are nodules on the ocean floor which are rich in manganese. While these would produce less pollution to process, there are worries that removing the nodules would cause irreparable harm to the local environment.
However, even if your batteries were mined in the most harmful method possible and your power comes from the dirtiest plant of all time, the long term emissions are still much better than driving the most fuel-efficient ICE over the same time period.
I think of the mining issues somewhat like nuclear power. That mining is also very problematic and destructive to the environment. However in both cases, it’s a relatively small amount. Even if the local environmental or social cost is higher, it is such a small amount of material that the overall cost is still lower.
Also, consider supply and demand. Every article talking about how bad. The mining is, mentions how there’s reasons more developed countries don’t do it. Recent years have seen several announcements of newly discovered resource in the US, for example. Will they be mined, despite higher worker safety and environmental protection? One way to encourage this is higher demand, raising the price enough to drive their profitability
Here in middle eu they are twice as expensive. Maybe it got a little better to like 1.75 now? Still I would have to be crazy to spend more than necessary on a car and watch it’s value plummet and repair cost suck my entertainment money. But also no way to charge them without living countryside or arrive comfortably at the far destination without long stops.
A car is a necessary tool to get from a to b. Whatever does its job the best at the moment. I despise car owners treating them as status symbols.
Eee 40k euros? That’s what I am talking about I buy cars for 20k-25k€ maximum after conversion to local currency
You don’t even drive one so how can you have valuable opinion on this? I drive one and analyse which one is the most efficient purchase and you only deal in theoretical armchair expertise
You buy much cheaper cars than the average German then. Good for you to unironically know better than the average German and understand that beyond the 20-25k mark, you're paying for stupid stuff and branding.
I can analyse this because I can compare studies and averages, my whole point was "no, electric cars aren't even that expensive anymore", not "cars are good and electric cars are always better and everyone should get one".
Only you can judge your own circumstances but it really seems like fear of difference makes worries loom larger.
Here in the US
my Tesla was the most expensive car I ever bought
but price had dropped and continues to drop
cheaper than the average new car, cheaper than the custom trucks so many neighbors have
it was like $120 to buy a full set of adapters and cables to allow me to plugin anywhere to any type of outlet
installing a level 2 home charger (if you can) was essentially the same cost as installing a new stove circuit - expensive but quite doable
superchargers are all over the place and easy to find. I know people who can’t charge at home just goto the supercharger once a week
since I can charge at home, I’ve only used superchargers over 100 miles from home
it’s really nice to never have to go to the local gas station: charging my car is like charging my phone, get into the habit and it’s always ready to go. Once people get used to this, they’ll never accept the idea of a technology like hydrogen where you would have to go refuel yet again
it’s roomier, more practical than my Subaru
it’s faster more powerful than my old Grand Am
my local garage services them, or at least inspects them, since I haven’t yet needed service
I know it’s mostly better but it’s not feasible yet where I live. 1) more expensive.. I mean I already typed all the things once
Wait tho why do I have a feeling like we are arguing even though we just repeat our own experiences? It’s all cool, some place electric cars are viable elsewhere they aren’t. I hope they will become feasible here where I live (middle eu)
Again, I don't know what "here" means, I'm telling you that the average new car in Germany (since you mentioned central Europe)costed more than 40k€, and that's more than some seriously good electric cars like the BYD Dolphin.
You are aware that these vehicles are sold outside China as well, right? I'm not making the point of "in china they're cheap", I'm making the point "they are cheap, maybe just not in your country"
It doesn't matter, my point stands, half the people in the US who buy new ICE cars could buy electric cars for the same of less money. My whole point is that the price has gone down a lot.
Well everything's more expensive than the thing you already own. It's true, most are available in the higher end markets right now, but the Bolt and Leaf are pretty cheap. In the long run, almost all EVs are cheaper than their gas counterparts.
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I'm sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn't matter.
Plus the technology to battery swap is well in use for electric vehicles (see Nio, who have thousands of battery swap stations in China and some in Europe too). 3 mins and you have a full battery.
It matters to people who drive more during the day than their range allows. They don't want to wait 20 minutes for the car to charge every time they venture 300km out and back /s
Quick Google says a great majority of Americans take road trips. Even though it's a tiny fraction of their driving, it's still a deciding factor for many when choosing a car. Not all people have the luxury of affording a second car just for road trips.
Public transportation would be good, but there's less flexibility to it. For example, just yesterday, on a return from a roadtrip, I got stomach sick and had to request frequent stops. That wouldn't fly on a train.
I'd love it if we had affordable and flexible public transport for getting all across the country, though.
Yeah, but road trips can be expensive. Suppose you want to go from Harrisburg PA to Rockford IL with 2 adults and 1 teenager from November 15 to 22.
By car that's about 1500 miles. An average car gets 21 mpg, so that's about 71 gallons. Gas is around $3.5 per gallon, so the trip costs about $250 in gas. You'll need a hotel. I picked a random one in Ohio. $110 for the way up, $185 for the way back. I guess that's a Thanksgiving price hike. $545 total.
By train, let's say Amtrak because that came up first. $438 up, and that includes boarding a train at midnight and sleeping on the train, and then riding a bus from Chicago to Rockford for 2 hours. $483 back down, and this time when you sleep on the train you have to wake up by 5 AM to get off. Also this is coach class, and those seats aren't great for sleeping. At least you don't need a hotel. $921 total.
By plane, it's $650 round trip, simple as, but you have to leave at 6 AM on the way up and 5 AM on the way back. It can cost $200 more to get a more convenient time, but let's assume you're going for economy alone. $650 total.
That's not accounting for food prices along the way. That could bring the car ride up to the same price as the plane if you don't pack food, but if you're spending extra on convenience there, you're probably willing to spend extra for convenience on the plane too.
So it's probably safe to say that, for this group, the car saves about $100 per year, but helping to protect the environment is worth that price. On the other hand, there's something to be said for the flexibility and ease of planning on a car. For a bigger family, cars would be a way better option, and for a family without kids or a lone traveler, planes are the way better option. Trains are right out.
I'd also add time to the comparison. Time isn't free, and if you spend 2 solid days driving, you might reconsider flying and renting a car at the destination even if it's more expensive. If you use an ev and have to take a few stops extra that might tip the scale.
Unless you're taking road trips literally every other week you could just rent a gas vehicle when it's time for a road trip. Rather than make the decision of the car you're going to drive every single day based on something you only do maybe once a year.
It's why I don't own a pickup truck, I actually do haul cars, help people move and all that shit that people say is why they need a pickup truck but I just go to fucking U-Haul and rent either the Sprinter van or the pickup truck for 30 bucks plus mileage when I need one. And I do actually keep track of my financial records with a double Ledger Finance app I just went and looked and I'm still nowhere near the cost of a used pickup truck from all of that renting
The people providing the charging infrastructure here haven't figured out this important point yet. Gas stations are a terrible place to put chargers, no one wants to stop at a gas station for fifteen minutes to an hour at a time. Charging stations need to be in places people will be stopping anyway, or at the very least places that provide something to do while waiting. Restaurants, shopping centres, tourist traps, whatever.
Here it's exacerbated by the fact that the fastest chargers we have only deliver about 60kW. Not even close to the 200+ some EVs need to get the fast charging times they advertise. But that 60kW would be perfectly fine if I could spend the time in a restaurant instead of standing around at a gas bar in the middle of nowhere.
Hell, even cheap (or free) "level 2" chargers outside restaurants and shopping malls would be a huge help.
As it should be, and I agree that those crazy fast 200+ kW chargers are rarely necessary.
It's kind of a weird reaction to consumer hesitation and people complaining that they don't want to wait for charge times as compared to the time it takes to fill a tank. Making charging as fast as possible to address the complaint (while still being one or two orders of magnitude slower at best), because that's easier than getting people to change their driving habits, or making them realise that they're always going to start the day with a full charge at home.
Even if all you have is relatively paltry north american 110V at home you need to drive way more than average per day for that not to keep up.
I’m so glad here in Germany they do that more often now. We have a quite a few large charging parks next to restaurants and bakeries. I just made a 9 hour trip to Denmark and it was a pretty nice experience overall. Only downside is you have to plan ahead if you want this convenience because the majority is still spots with 1-2 occupied chargers at some ugly, smelly Autobahn rest area.
Although own an electric car, I believe range is still an issue. I was specifically addressing fuel density and charging time. EVs have their issues, but I believe they will be solved over time even though they are unlikely to beat an ICE in fuel density or charge rate for a long time. But I don't think those things are actually important, because the problem is solved in a different way.
Because it's currently easier to find a gas station than a charger that will do that performance. Now I'm willing to wait 8 hrs for 10%, but others certainly aren't.
I don't have enough charge for my trip. I'm also thirsty.
I go to a grocery store with a fast charger.
I buy a drink.
I have enough charge.
If it's a long trip where I need more charge, I choose a car snack, and I'll have enough.
If I'm on an actual long car trip and I want to charge all the way from the warning light to 100%, I will need to eat a meal anyway. I just find a McDonald's/cafe,/restaurant/whatever with a fast charger, and it'll be full before I'm done.
But finding a store/eating place with a fast charger is still waaaay less convenient than just finding a place where I can get diesel in seconds, and find a different place to get drinks/food/snacks.
yes, they are. they make difference between actually usable technology and engineer's dream.
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
i doubt we even have enough rare metals for 8 or 16 billion batteries. most of them are being mined in politically unstable or to western civilization unfriendly countries, with terrible effect on the environment.
efficiency matters, it is not a question of how good single battery is.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I’m sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn’t matter.
oh good. YOU have it solved, so the rest of the world does not matter, i assume...? fuck all these people, right?
Hey mate I'm just here for some friendly discussion, I'm not here to argue until I'm blue in the face.
There is a difference between your above points and the original claim.
Fuel density doesn't matter, what matters is how far you can drive on a charge.
Charge time doesn't matter if you can swap a battery in 3 minutes instead of waiting to charge.
For your new point of rare earth materials, this isn't related to the original energy density or charge time points, but high density batteries that don't use rare earth metals already exist, the problem is cost. That will change over time.
Also you're ignoring that fossil fuels are also dug out of the ground.
Yes, for people who can't charge at home. I'd love to swap to electric, but 1 hour trip to go charge the car at the nearest charging station is not realistic - especially since I'd need to do it twice as often as 10min trip to refuel.
Also there's the EV prices, starting at 2-3 times more than my current whip lol
My point is that we should be focused on the outcomes we want. It isn't really important that fossil fuels are a lot more energy dense if the electric cars can travel twice as far. They can't, but I'd be willing to bet we will get to that point with fossil fuels still being more energy dense.
But also as I mentioned in the comment you relied to, Nio have a vast network of battery swap stations where you can get a full charge in a couple of minutes, the same as filling up at a gas station.
The price of EVs are a problem, and not the only problem, but my point was that the specific things mentioned don't stop us having better EVs than ICEs, because we will get the same outcome in a different way.
I absolutely agree that we should work on improving EVs, charging network and whatever technologies makes it better and more suitable for more people. But every person in need of a car has unique hard requirements for the car that can't be ignored as "inconvenience" - and many of those people have to drive with fossil fuels still.
Also, battery swap stations being available in X location doesn't matter to people living in Y location, nor should people in Y location buy EV in hopes that it will be better in Z years
I agree completely. I am not trying to argue that everyone can or should go out and buy an EV.
I was specifically addressing the points that seemed to be claiming EVs are not the right direction for cars or engines to be advancing towarda, by pointing out that the barriers aren't blocking all paths.
It's exactly this. Convenience. We've become accustomed to how convenient it is and don't want to be put out.
On the other hand, it's super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank. So if you drive less than 60 miles a day, and have acess to another car for long trips, an electric is even more convenient.
It's one of those things where people feel like they're going to take a road trip every weekend, but most people are just using their car to commute to and from work and maybe take one or two longer trips per year. The time saved by not having to stop at a gas station throughout the the year is less than the additional time taken at a fast charging station for the rare road trip.
Unfortunately, people tend to buy vehicles to best accomplish 1% of their driving. I live in the suburbs and almost every house has a giant pickup parked in front. Not because people are in the construction business and need to haul a lot of stuff, but because once a year they might go to Home Depot and it feels good to put their two bags of mulch in the back.
Part of the problem is not having the money or space for an extra vehicle.
I drive an SUV, I don't particularly like driving an SUV, I get a lot of use out of having a larger vehicle, I'm an avid DIYer who makes frequent trips to the hardware store to pick up lumber and such, I have a lot of outdoor hobbies and usually end up being the one who drives so I'm carrying gear for several people, I don't exactly go off roading, but those hobbies sometimes take me on some poorly maintained, deeply rutted, muddy roads and 4wd has gotten me out of some jams, I occasionally drive onto the beach to go fishing, usually find myself towing a small trailer a couple times a year, and I'm an essential employee that lives in an area that gets snow with a weird schedule that usually has me commuting before the snow plows have gotten through everywhere.
But even though I probably get more actual use out of an SUV than most people, most often I'm still only driving about 20 miles or less a day, on paved roads, in weather that doesn't require anything more than working headlights, wipers, and tires that aren't totally bald.
If I had the budget and parking space I'd probably have the cheapest base model EV I could find for most of my commuting and small errands and save the SUV for my days off and when it snows. That's not the case though.
I am so ready to hop on the PHEV or even full electric bandwagon.
I do have 2 major hurdles though.
First is there aren't a lot of vehicles out there, at an affordable price point for me that quite fit my needs. I've pretty much dialed in that a midsized SUV or small pickup truck is just right for me. There's some exciting options coming down the pipeline, but none that are out there have quite hit the sweet spot for me yet. (I am champing at the bit for Ford to release a PHEV AWD maverick with a midgate to make up for that short bed. That's basically my ideal vehicle, I'd also be stoked for Toyota to do a plug in 4runner, my current car is a 4runner and I like it a lot, if either of those happen before I'm ready for my next car theres a good chance that's what I'm getting)
Second is charging, I live in a townhome with no garage or driveway, so if I want to charge at home I'm pretty much stuck running about a 30ft extension cord across my front lawn and sidewalk. That's less than ideal, and my HOA hasn't exactly been friendly to others in my neighborhood who have gone electric who have done that. I can probably work around that though, the way my schedule works, unless I go in for overtime I usually don't work more than 3 days in a row, so if battery-only range gets a little better for PHEVs (which hopefully they will by the time I'm able to budget for a new car in a few years) I can probably do most of my commuting on one charge and find an hour or two on my days off to go somewhere with a fast charger.
In the meantime, I just try to get my wife to do as much of the driving as possible when we're both off since she has a prius, our schedules don't always align, but when they do I only drive if we need my bigger car for something.
It's a long way off, but we also fantasize about the possibilities of self-driving cars someday when all of the problems are worked out. Since we have different schedules (she works a regular 9-5, I work 3pm-3am on a 2-2-3 schedule,) we could have one self driving car for most of our commuting and errands, it could take her to work, come home and take me to work, pick her up and take her home, and pick me up at the end of my shift, and go charge itself in-between.
If they use a camper or heavy trailer even four times per year, fine whatever keep your truck. The other millions of Americans should've just rented a vehicle when they needed it, and it would've been far cheaper and more convenient to have their daily driver as a regular sized sedan.
You don't even need the clothes dryer circuit, the vast majority of people don't drive enough in a day to need anything more than a standard 15a outlet
it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank
But, to make that possible, you basically have to have a "gas station" at home. If you own your own house you can modify it to install a charging spot. If you rent, you might not have that option.
All EVs come with Level 1 chargers that plug in to your standard house outlet.
Sure, but if you use those it takes a very long time to charge. Like, from empty it can take 40+ hours to charge a battery EV from empty to 80%. If you're using your car to commute and your commute is anywhere near the max range of your car, that isn't a viable option.
I wonder if looking at the system as a whole for both systems would reveal a different difference. (infra needed to transport and fill those gas station tanks vs infra needed for level 3 charging stations)
On the one hand the Nokia 3310's battery lasts a week. On the other hand the iPhone 15....
Just plug your car in when you're not using it like you'd charge your phone overnight. It's only a problem if you can't charge at home (due to on street parking and no charging facilities on that street) and you can't charge somewhere you usually take your car (eg a workplace).
If i ride to vacation to a country with no charging infrastucture, if I want to ride to the mountains where it is subzero and my range drops dramatically, if I go to a place where it's 38 deree celsius and I need AC my range is pretty much fucked up... (not to mention that close to remote places like cool beaches there is no charging station)
If I want to have a road trip... i suddenly becomes a planning issue
There are still so many things that are complicated by having a EV, and I don't need the extra complications
And flood loads of valleys to create massive hydro power stations?
Norway's low density gives it plentry of cheap renewable electricity (per person).
In my country we have loads of people living in valleys, so we'd probably not get away with building that much hydro generation capacity.
Although there's a whole area called the "lake district" that is literally asking for it.
Norway is incredibly sparsely populated and has an adoption rate of 80%+. We also have stupid cold winters, loads of fucking mountains and require AC in summer.
I've driven through Europe twice with no more than 2 minutes of planning in an app.
Your comment makes me think you have no experience with EV's at all and are spreding false claims.
There are literally two scenarios where an EV is not better than ICE (if purchased new today).
One is for people frequently traveling far beyond the cars range and the other is for people without access to AC charging at all.
And no, I'm not a EV lover/gasoline hater. I ride a motorcycle powered by dinosaur juice too. I just like having 400+ BHP and 700 Nm of torque in a car priced like a Toyota Avensis, and a full tank every single time I leave my driveway with said full tank costing me <$5.
You should want that too unless you belong to one of the two exeption groups above.
My issue with EVs isn't the EV itself, it's that they're all smart cars. Granted, most new ICE cars are being overladen with bull shit too so I think I'm just stuck with cars from the 2010s.
Both tbh. I also just don't like the usability and looks of everything being a screen. I really hate digital dashboards. The newer cars feel like they were designed to be disposable like a smart phone, where long term use isn't a consideration.
I have seen some services that convert ICE cars to EV, so I may just do that when my engine needs replaced
The reason I single out the 2010s is because that's when I could get a touch screen with car play, but still have HVAC controls as a button and no digital dashboards.
If you don't drive for work--and I mean get paid to drive hundreds of miles every day, not just a long commute--or take a road trip every month, and have a place to charge at night (most people do, at least in North America), then an EV is just better.
Otherwise, a plug-in hybrid or a "gasoline boosted EV" like a Volt is sufficient. ICE cars for regular people shouldn't have even existed once the Volt proof of concept was proven!
That's a very real issue that car enthusiasts have a hard time with. There's just something about a great sounding engine that is the cherry on top of a car you like. My weak spot is a 4 rotor screaming like a banshee from Mazda's Le Mans car.
The whole notion of loud = fast falls apart with electric engines.
Not many people buy cars just because they sound good. It's usually the engine that makes it sound good.(+exhaust, etc). Which means tha there's still the need for speed.
But if you want speed, you need to go electric.
The whole macho V8 rumble and manually shifting gears is now less effective than a one-pedal, one-gear, quiet electeic setup.
This must such a huge disconnect in their heads, that they go about posting "electric = gay" on car videos.
Just like listening to loud music with windows down, the loud fart cans are just for seeking attention.
A loud engine is now an equivalent of a dog that barks, but doesn't bite.
I agree that there are many cars that sound incredible (four rotor Mazdas, Porche Carerra GTs, Black or Brabus Mercs, you name it), but disliking electric cars because they make a silly quiet noise just makes one a poser, IMO.
Electric cars are fun, and I don't personally mind they're basically silent. But nothing will replace the fun of a manual transmission ICE.
I don't think most people get a loud exhaust for attention either, but because they like it. But windows down blasting music is pointless and toxic, IMO.
Also saying if you want speed to go electric is too generic, IMO. What kind of speed and when you're going to use it is important. For example, if you want speed from a standstill, then sure electric. Want speed once you're already moving, like a race track, then ICE is fine since you'll be high RPMs.
And I don’t get this. I mean I also love the feel of power you get from a large engine turning over, but really? You over there in that mustang making all that noise and effort, really straining to accelerate, while my Tesla effortlessly leaves you in the dust? Do people not understand how much more powerful it feel to be the fastest car with seemingly no effort?
Hybrids are more affordable than full electrics, and have some of the benefits.... I have a Kia Sorento and its torque was enough to climb out of a pretty deep rut that would have required shifting into low4 on my dad's 4x4... Plus it gets about 600 miles on a tank.
the price gap is slowly closing, esp if you take into account total cost of ownership. It agree that the upfront cost makes it out of reach for many people.
Really the biggest part of the price gap now seems to be volume. Not enough new cars to offset the R&D and bring prices down. Not enough new cars for there to be a healthy used car market. And especially not enough non-premium cars
An ICE hybrid is a gas car with a little electric motor shoehorned inside.
A "plug in" hybrid as they are called is a full electric drivetrain, with a gas generator like you'd buy at Lowes stuck in the boot
.
It seems trivial, but the difference is massive. The former is super complicated, heavy, and expensive, as you need all the junk a gas car needs and the electric stuff to go with it.
The later is hilarously efficient. It takes the best part of electric cars, the dead simple drive train, and solves their achilles heel: the massive battery. You can get away with a dirt cheap 3 horsepower generator in such a setup and shrink the battery massively, whereas a ICE hybrid needs a huge car engine and (like I said) all the expensive junk that goes with it.
You don't see more of the later because:
Car manufacturers are geared to produce ICE cars, and reserve the electric drivetrain capacitry for profitable luxury vehicles first.
This is just speculation on my part, but a gas range extending generator "taints" a full electric car, making it unpalatable to people who think it ruins the image, eco friendliness or whatever, when it's actually better for the environment because the battery isn't so freaking big.
Another point I was getting as is that pure electric cars suffer from the same problem space rockets do: most of their weight is fuel.
Hence they are heavy, need a lot of raw material and manufacturing. Read: Expensive and bad for the environment, compared to a cheaper plug in hybrid.
And a tiny, 5 horsepower gasoline generator is hilarously efficient compared to a car engine. And dirt cheap, and weighs virtually nothing. There are technical reasons for this, but basically it's not even in the same league, and produces a fraction of the emissions as a full ICE car.
Maybe truth is they started talking about doing a car like that and by the time it was ready for production they ended up with a regular ICE car because they nearly doubled the HP of the generator every time the design got reviewed like you are doing now. Before long it will be a tiny 98 HP generator…
You really don't need 90hp. Coasting on the freeway takes less than 10hp, depending on how big of a block you drive, so as long as the average is around that, the generator can keep the battery charged forever, and the battery handles any surge in power you need. It's only a problem if you drive like a jerk, and floor it out of every light or speed down the highway at 100+mph, and do it long enough to drain the battery.
But the brilliant part is that you can design the generator motor for single, constant RPM. I can't emphasize how much easier and more efficient that makes everything, vs. having to engineer a huge power/rpm range that can handle a dynamic load.
No I’m with you and have always kind of wished that’s the direction more EVs would have gone. I have a minivan for all the shit going on with kids and I love it but I have to drive six hundred miles half a dozen times a year so they can visit their mom. I higher range EV that I can refill with gas would be a game changer. Instead I got an electric golf cart that is street legal I use for the majority of my local commuting so I only drive the minivan a few times a week. I was really just being a turd because your first comment said 3 HP and the next one said 5 HP.
too many people never plugged them in, so you just have a slightly heavier ICE car
they would have been a great transition to full EV, but full EVs are now functional enough for most people (we need to get the volume up to get the price down)
I suppose they’re still right for some people but generally it’s just Toyota looking back to do what they should have been doing ten years ago
This idea overlaps the big truck mentality: most EVs are much lighter. The weight penalty averages only about 20% over an equivalent ICE, so the type of vehicle you get can be a much bigger impact. My EV is a mid sized SUV that may be the biggest car I’ve ever owned and it weighs 4,000 lbs. I’m not claiming it’s light, but it’s much better than you seem to think
Still, there is a weight penalty depending on how much range they try to squeeze in.
And I'm one of those people that gets super salty about ICE cars getting so heavy too, especially crossovers and city SUVs that everyone seems to run now. A small or mid sized SUV should not be 4,000lb with modern tech, ICE or not.
Purchase price, higher maintenance costs (EVs eat tires due to the increased weight and higher torque), installation of charging infrastructure (some us need expense electrical service upgrades and added wiring; we don’t all have 200 amp panels and garages with 30 amp 240v service already wired in)
I’d love an EV, but I won’t be afforded Int one for a bit. And used ones, even if cheaper, will have massive battery degradation cutting range way down.
I always heard the concern about electrical service but wonder at the reality. A level 2 charger is the same as a stove circuit: do none of you have electric stoves? You don’t even need that: some people are fine with just an extension cord, some people need a “dryer outlet”, I have never come close to needing the level 2 charger: is it really important that my EV charges in a couple hours vs by morning?
Also, hasn’t 200a service been standard for new homes for a couple decades? If someone can afford an EV, they are much more likely to have a newer home so already have 200a service
I know level 1 charging is there (although I also only have one exterior outlet), ~3 miles per hour of charging is tight. I need to be plugged in at least 10 hours for just my commute.
And, yeah, you hit on the big problem. EVs are expensive and are only really accessible to those already at the upper end of the spectrum. Belief that gas engines are more powerful or have more instant torque is not what is keeping people from EVs, so the point Randall makes is pretty stupid.
But I had a lucky start in a previous owner upgrading to 200a service …. Maybe to install central air? When I moved in, I got all gas appliances, but 20 years later, everything is coming up for replacement. Times have changed. Technology is changing. Our understanding of our impact on the environment is changing.
The timing is perfect.
I replaced my old gas stove with induction, and a big rebate
i have teens just starting to drive so I let them use my old Subaru and bought myself an EV, and a huge rebate
I installed a level 2 charger, with a rebate
My furnace and AC are past their life expectancy and there are huge rebates on heat pumps ….
That's really the only thing holding EV's back. If we can get away from lithium batteries and get something like graphene batteries (one can dream), range, recharge, etc. everything immediately get's better.
But electric engines are far superior.
Ev are awesome. Once they get to 1000 mile range I'm going to buy one. Work sends me to the sticks often, and I need 4x4 and can sometimes be 500 miles away from a charger
Time really, it takes me 5 minutes to fuel for 400 miles, it takes most ev owners much longer.
I work with a lot of EV I'm not just some hater. I wish they could charge faster or hold more range, I drive 1000 miles a week for work and can't spend 5 hours a week at a charger sadly.
Sometimes it's 500 miles in a day. And in rural zones
My home won't allow for fast charging. Nor can I afford to replace my reliable vehicle with an ev that won't have the other features I need (a bed, ground clearance, 4x4, etc)
Your home doesn't need to charge fast. Just charge overnight. In Europe, after a few hours on a three phases plug your car will be full, after a night on a single phase as well. In the US, a night on an ordinary plug should give you enough range to do more than average stuff or at least get to the next fast charger.
To be honest, if you truly need a truck that's of course an issue as you picked the biggest status symbol of them all, which makes it the most expensive type of car. There are plenty EVs with AWD and some ground clearance, maybe check them out and consider a small trailer if you need to transport your stuff?
However, you seem to already have decided to dislike EVs, so I doubt you'd be enjoying it. If you're bent on hating something, chances are you'll find a reason to do so.
I'm not saying your truck in particular is a status symbol, I'm saying trucks are status symbols and therefore generally expensive. If you're in the US, it's hard to find something like a Honda Acty and you'll always pay for the machine to be oversized.
I'm also not saving EVs have no drawbacks at all. The drawbacks they have are, however, manageable. A car will always be a compromise, and the fact that electric cars have to be charged is something that can be dealt with.
So, I get where you're going, but first: it takes much longer, but I do it at home while I'm asleep, so that doesn't really count. It's more the opposite, I really enjoy not having to stop at gas stations anymore. You just never wake up to an empty car anymore.
Then, for longer trips, it obviously takes more time to recharge than to refuel. But as a family of five, we had breaks before we had an ev. Last time we made a longer trip, we picked up my inlaws and wanted to visit some other family members that were about one and a half charge stops away. We took three breaks because someone had to pee, someone was hungry or someone wanted whatever. If you're a flying sales person that that wants to drive 2000 km in a day it'll obviously be annoying. For anybody else that takes some reasonable stops along the way, I doubt it changes much. Just stop the car at a charger and grab a coffee at the next supermarket. Once you had that you can usually drive again.
You know, it actually does. Taking a 20 minute break every 3 hours doesn't hurt anybody badly. That's all it takes to no longer locally burn fossil fuels and reduce the emissions significantly. I get the problem that electric cars are too expensive and I understand that some people can't afford them. But this entitlement of "my precious 20 minutes that I can spend doing some situps or have a coffee are too much to ask from me, so I'd rather keep burning carbon" is just nonsense. People should walk more and bike more and use more trains. However, if none of that works, electric cars are a working alternative to produce much less carbon dioxide. But if a slight inconvenience of taking not even the recommended pauses while driving is already too much to ask, this planet is fucked I guess.
Electric cars is not the solution. Sure, it's an improvement, but for a real solution you need to get people out of personal vehicles on onto public transportation. Trains, trams, busses, whatever. Build it in a way that doesn't suck. Assuming american, the US had (past tense) amazing train/tram networks decades ago. Every warehouse had a rail spur, and since walking was considered ok people weren't obese fatasses.
I drive a scooter. It is possible to live without a car, although it does have some difficulties sometimes. If your job is within 10 miles of your home or less, then you don't need a car for your commute. If I can do it so can you. I'd still rather take a bus, if it existed.
I think people (not me, I agree with glitchdx, overall) are probably down voting because it's a classic example of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, with a healthy dose of smug mixed in. Smugness is a great dialectical tactic if you hope to entrench people deeper into their views, rather than convince them to consider alternatives through reasoned discussion.
Do I agree that ideally we'd have robust public transit and increased usage of smaller, greener personal transport solutions? Of course I do.
But, incrementalism is progress. Valuable progress. We could argue whether it's more likely to get us to the aforementioned vision of robust public transit or not, but history has proven time and time again that progress takes time and is resisted tooth and nail by monied interests. I don't like it either. I want to wave a wand and have everything change. OP is right. Electric cars are not the solution. But treating symptoms while you work on curing the disease is best practice.
I never said that, thanks for speaking for me I really appreciate it though. I am simply saying moving away from ICE just isn't feasible everywhere right now.
bro is literally just advocating for public transportation
Seems to me that bro is arguing against EVs when that may be the best choice in an individuals control. Even if we’re all for public transportation, that takes years and millions to improve, so EVs may be the best choice available for the time being
I want an EV. I think its 98% the right choice for me. I also 100% with you. Cars are a terrible solution at a certain density, which is what most industry and thus where people live makes sense.
Just came back from Tokyo. Tokyo's public transportation is awesome. You do also need to walk a lot at times and the first few days our legs were quite sore. But towards the end of the trip I can feel my leg strength again, felt healthier, and did not miss my car at all. To go to certain places, you do have to plan a little bit ahead, for example, a day trip out to Mt. Fuji area requires booking tickets because right now there's a ton of tourists. But within the city, the subways are so convenient.
My job is within 10mi of my home. If I walk there, I get there in 2 hours. If I take public transportation, it takes me 1h45m to 2h20m depending on the day.
I also live in a community where our electricity is from 90% renewable resources, 10% nuclear. Switching to an electric car is a 100% reduction in carbon usage for my commute.
Using the bus isn't.
Why not get an electric bike then? Reasonable price tag, will get you to work within a reasonable timeframe, significantly less congestion on roads, and charges with that renewable energy without using a lot of it.
Also, their point was that adding infrastructure for public transport (aka improving the public transport you're complaining about) will have a huge effect on reducing greenhouse gas emissions across a population and is more easily electrified. Your focus on an individual case is irrelevant to their argument.
Switching to an electric car is a 100% reduction in carbon usage for my commute.
Is it really? Are you positive?
How is your electricity generated. Coal, natural gas, or oil? Congratulations, your carbon usage is HIGHER with an EV than with an ICE! Is it hydro? Go look at the methane produced by those huge reservoirs. I haven't seen the calculations, but it's not neutral.
Oh, I know. You use solar and/or wind. Now look up the environmental costs of producing those. And of mining the special metals needed for the batteries. Or if you're nuked, the costs of mining uranium.
Switching to an EV is not the simple "zero carbon" solution you seem to imagine it to be.
The issue with this stance is that it's one of those all-or-nothing points of view. Sure it's better to have good public transportation, but in a lot of places there won't be for the foreseeable future. Sure it's better to use bicycles, but sometimes it's just not an option.
Electric cars won't fix traffic, but for the planet they're still a vast improvement. It's like a viable 95% solution that is dismissed because there might a 100% one somewhere in the next 200 years.
I think they were trying to say that every individual who uses their car less is an improvement.
I live outside Boston, which has among the best transit in the US but it doesn’t take me everywhere. My town is quite walkable but also hilly and with weather. I do choose to walk, or ride the train when I can, but I still need a car. Improving this enough for most prople to dispense with cars will be a very long time. In the meantime, my use of EV, walk, train is a huge improvement of my brother in the Midwest using ICE car for everything
Friend and coworker of mine was recently in a deadly accident on her way to work on a scooter. Those vehicles are great but on a road that is still primarily built for cars (and is now inhabited by ever more massive giant pickups) it can be a serious safety risk.
you need to get people out of personal vehicles on onto public transportation
This is really the heart of it. It's an infrastructure problem. Frustratingly, this is the most difficult and time consuming problem to solve.
Not owning a personal vehicle is only okay if you live in the heart of a city and don't go outside of that little bubble. All other scenarios massively benefit from a personal vehicle; even going from one side of a city to another.
Not owning a personal vehicle is only okay if you live in the heart of a city …
Like most people in the western world (and indeed likely in most of the world) do.
… and don’t go outside of that little bubble.
Because rental of smaller vehicle services (like taxis, etc.) is totally not a thing.
The problem here is that you have the American disease (even if you're not American). You're so infused with the cultural insistence that there's only one way to do things … the way things are done now … that you literally cannot conceive of a life without cars (or guns, or with public health care). Despite this being, you know, the norm for most of the world.
Im sorry but how else do you drive 2 hours into the middle of the woods where there are no other people around so you can get away from godawful society for a while if not owning your own car? Im certainly not going to pay someone else to drive me out to a favorite low/no traffic spot just to show everyone where it is and then ruin it.
Cool but they sound like shit. No aesthetics in evs. You don't feel connected to the car. Don't feel the engagement. But hey, cars are all about stats, right, right??
Edit: ok so I get downvoted for having a differing opinion from the majority of Lemmy users here. I'm wrong in saying that EV engines sound like shit?PLEASE one downvoter, explain to me how such a statement deserves a downvote?
Majority of you probably just use your car as a means of transportation. I don't. I also drive to have fun. That's also why I never drive automatic as it is (to me) more engaging and challenging with a manual gear box. Let me give you another example: weight. EVs are heavy, always. I don't like heavily cars because I don't find them enjoyable to drive on small roads.
Please understand that there is more to the world of cars than numbers.
being on a track and being able to hear what my tires are doing, individually, in the absence of engine and exhaust (and intake) noises, is a pretty cool level of connectedness and engagement.
Fair enough. Do you do track days yourself? I would love to learn more about what I can from listening to my tires.
Still, no engine noise.
I'm not a EV hater, just saying that there are more to cars than 0-100km/h stats and range. And to me, most of these aesthetic qualities are lost with EVs. The only EV that looks interesting from a aesthetics point of view is the inonic 5 n, imho.
Two track days in my Taycan - one at Portland International Raceway, and one at Pacific Raceways.
One rallycross event at Dirtfish in a Fiesta ST
Two day AWD rally racing instruction at Dirtfish (their owm WRX STI sedans)
Several track days in a Cayman at Pacific Raceways and one at The Ridge
And awhile back, track days and autocross in RX-8 and Genesis Coupe. Even a winter autocross in the RX-8 once, which was interesting and challenging.
I totally agree that driving cars for enjoyment which have engaging qualities like three pedals can be that much more enjoyable. And I agree that the Ioniq 5 N offers a really compelling feature for folks like us in their simulated gears - I REALLY wanna try that and I hope the concept spreads to other sporty EVs!
Edit: to answer the start of your post, I can hear which tires are losing grip, which can mean a whole bunch of things, like if the fronts are squealing in a corner I could lift off a tiny bit to shift weight forward and give them more grip, or remember to brake earlier before I hit that same turn on the next lap. Nothing I don't already intuit from steering wheel feedback and the "butt feel" of inertia, but it's another dimension of that awareness
how does that matter if the drive by wire has force feedback.
people argued over fly by wire in planes when it started emerging, how it was taking the safe controllable mechanical link away or whatever, but ultimately it has proven its safety and reliability over mechanical linkages anyway
I'm not disagreeing that it's better but I just prefer the direct feel of hydraulic steering. It's the primary reason I drive a 15 year old BMW and refuse to get something newer haha
I've tried the new models but the feel just isn't there
Lemmy user base will not understand your comment but yes, I will miss the roar of an engine in the future, and the ability to feel the road through the steering wheel. EVs are simply not fun nor interesting even though I can't deny they are 'better'
Nope. Hoped Lemmy would be better but it's just like reddit: disagree -> downvote....apparently. I thought up/down voting was supposed to help filter out bad contributions, not silence people with opinions that are different from your own.
We agree.
True but 'better' in what ways? EVs are, as you know, extremely heavy. Is this better or worse? If you don't have a car that you like to drive for the sake of driving, then it might not matter. If you are like me and like to fun on small roads then you might hate heavy cars because of the handling. Most EV lovers don't understand such things because they have a car for the purpose of transportation, not for the purpose of "the drive". Maybe bad generalization but I have yet to meet a person who have had as much fun in an EV as in a more traditional sport oriented car.... Except for the ionic 5 n, but I think there's a novelty factor involved here.
If I only needed my car for transportation, the I would buy an EV, but only because of the reduced fuel costs.
I mean weight is a huge issue too just due to safety. I drove my buddies model Y recently and it felt extremely nimble, probably due to the center of gravity being so good thanks to the batteries
But you can still feel how heavy the vehicle is and I imagine crashing into one would fucking hurt. I mean my GMC Sierra is lighter, it's absurd really
Pros and cons as with everything in this world. Great to hear that you had a good time in the model Y. Thanks for letting me know that I'm not all alone with these not-lemmy-approved comments
I agree that the EV aesthetics suck. Half of them are crossovers which I hate, and the other half are pretty boring - where is my EV in the form factor of a Miata or a Camaro? They made a Mustang EV, but for some absolutely baffling reason neither of the Mustang EVs look like a goddamn Mustang. I get that aerodynamics are important, but I would gladly eat a reduction in max range in order to drive something that looks good or handles better.
As for the sound of the EV engine, I actually like the "whirr" that they make before you get up to speed and it gets drowned out by the tires rolling and wind rushing. It sounds like the future.
"But if my car doesn't massively contribute to noise pollution and wake up half the neighborhood when I touch the gas pedal, how will I know I have a penis?"
Gas engines have decent range. Gas engines are cheaper (as the electric engine prices are artificially inflated, just look at Chinese prices), with gas engines you can listen to the sound of the engine to diagnose problems before they occur, batteries don't degrade (you still have car batteries, but when they degrade, you can still drive a car for as long as with the new battery. You can refuel it in a couple of seconds. Anyone can make one sided arguments. There isn't a best thing for everything.
The reason why you may be able to diagnose an ICE by sound is because they're complex. That's not a positive. An electric motor has just a few moving parts. If it goes bad you don't really need to work to figure it out and fix it.
The rest of the arguments can be made, but as you imply they're disingenuous. The sound one is just not a benefit at all.
I was apprehensive about EVs but the first time I rode in one I immediately fell in love with it. I get carsick easily, and the super-smooth ride without the chug-chug-chug of an internal combustion engine made the experience surprisingly much more pleasant for me. I do not use a car, but if I had to buy one, I don't think I could ever stomach an ICE again knowing that this alternative is available.
I knew that motion sickness is triggered by frequent starts and stops and frequent turns, but even I was not aware of how big a contribution the engine vibration makes until I got to experience a ride without it.
At a stretch, I guess you could say that a battery that's going bad doesn't make a sound.
But yes, electric motors are way more reliable than internal combustion engines and objectively superior. You would never use an ICE over an EE for any application where you have a reliable supply of electricity.
Either they are priced higher or they aren't. They are priced higher and as such I won't be buying one anytime soon. Not until they are a decade old on their original batteries.
Yeah, I understand perfectly that you're hilariously wrong. My car is paid off. It's just maintenance at this point. How is that going to be more expensive than buying an EV?
Reddit moment. You're right, but you let this guy frustrate you into responding to the same nonsense multiple times in a row, and some people thought you were being mean.
I think you are having trouble understanding the English language. Most people have heard of a thing called context.
“A programmer is going to the store and his wife tells him to buy a gallon of milk, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen. So the programmer goes shopping, does as she says, and returns home to show his wife what he bought. But she gets angry and asks, ‘Why’d you buy 13 gallons of milk?’ The programmer replies, ‘There were eggs!’”
Now as we are describing car types one with a gas and one with an electric engine, and comparing their prices, maybe put the LLM context tokens slightly higher before responding.
Range anxiety is largely a perception thing. The vast majority of car journeys are well within the range of an EV, you just need to get in the habit of plugging in like you would your phone. For journey's long enough for it to be more than a single charge you really should be stopping for more than a few seconds anyway as you need recharging.
you just need to get in the habit of plugging in like you would your phone
Yeah but not everyone lives in suburbia with ample plug-in options available to them. Where I live the street-side charging spots are usually occupied, and the parking spot that I rent has no charging.
For journey’s long enough for it to be more than a single charge you really should be stopping for more than a few seconds anyway as you need recharging.
True to some extent, I have to check my travel logs but I do feel like stopping for an hour every 300km or so is longer and much more often than I would normally stop on long road trips. My (diesel) car has a range of well over 1000km so often I stop for only 15 minutes for a coffee and to stretch my legs, or just for a restroom stop and a driver swap. We usually plan just one big stop (1h) for dinner. Most destinations I've been to I could reach without refueling at all.
There's also the issue of contention for charging spots. On gas stations near the big highways towards popular destinations you often already have to queue to get gas. This will become worse when EVs become common place and people occupy a charging spot for an hour instead of a fuel pump for 30 seconds to top up.
Little anecdote: every year around the holiday season, there are several company wide e-mails from EV driving co-workers requesting to swap cars (with a co-worker who has a CE car) to go on holiday. So I think the practical experience may not be as rosy as you paint it.
Okay, but it is still jumping through hoops which doesn't exist with gas cars. What if I have 3 people driving, like in a road trip? You can't continuously drive after refueling anymore. It isn't just a perception thing, it absolutely requires planning and stops you wouldn't take otherwise.
jumping through hoops which doesn't exist with gas cars.
You have to physically drive to a different location to get petrol. That's a hoop. Just because you're used to it doesn't mean it's not there.
What if I have 3 people driving, like in a road trip? You can't continuously drive after refueling anymore. It isn't just a perception thing, it absolutely requires planning and stops you wouldn't take otherwise.
It is a perception. The vast majority of trips this won't be an issue. In the once in a bluemoon that you'll be driving more than the range of the car, yes, it could be. This is where it's perception. People seem to think that they'll run commuting to work or half the journeys they take will be affected. Whereas it's really really rare.
So what you are saying is "I don't care about the points you raised" essentially. I said specifically "hoops that don't exist with gas cars" not "gas cars don't have hoops to jump through". Electric cars have issues with trips longer than their range, which you then need to charge for a very long time compared to just refueling the gas car.
Sorry about the hoops issues, I clearly slightly misread
However, two can play at being pedantic. I addressed your point about range anxiety before you even made it. As I said originally it is largely perception. I even went as far as to agree with you that in the 0.000001% of journeys you identified it would be an issue.
It's not going to work out. Battery connections need to be standardized across manufacturers, which is a lot more complicated than standardizing a plug. The garages to do swaps are a lot more complicated than chargers. It forces certain decisions on battery placement, which cuts out things like integrating the battery into the frame to save weight.
Charger deployment has raced ahead. We need a lot more of them to support the EVs we already have, and need even more for the EVs that are going to be purchased over the next decade. Switching over to swapping would send the EV market into whiplash that just isn't necessary.
I'm not understanding your "it can't be standardized if it's too complicated" argument. That hasn't seemed to have been a big issue for, for example, computer motherboards.
Motherboard standardization is not even close to comparable.
You have to standardize the dimensions and unlatching mechanism of a huge battery out from under the car and latching a new one in. It has to support a battery that weighs around 2 tons. This isn't just a matter of scaling up a AA battery connector. And then you have to convince all, or at least most, of the manufacturers to do that in order for network effects to help the process. Since we've had to do a lot before manufactures settled on a plug design, we're not likely to do the same for batteries.
A counterpoint to that is things like batteries, ram, motherboards, etc. in laptops (and pretty much every other device that uses rechargeable batteries). The fact is that for better designs the batteries are probably not going to be easily standardized in electric cars (also kills innovation).
PC motherboards aren't trying to use the least amount of space possible, because desktops can be large. The same isn't true with cars, the space matters.
You jump through all sorts of hoops with gas cars. We've all made it part of the habits of our lives and don't think about them, but they're absolutely there.
I'd honestly love to just plug in every night instead of having to spend time getting gas every week. Sure it's only a few minutes, but that's probably a few hours of my life every year. Getting an electric vehicle and renting cars for road trips would honestly make much more sense for me.
Unfortunately, it looks like it'd be financially irresponsible for me to buy an electric car right now while I still have a perfectly functional ICE car.
Range anxiety is not just about a single trip. You are assuming that not only will we all be able to just charge whenever and wherever we park our cars, but that we'll never fail to do so. You also assume that only one person will be driving the car.
If I forget to plug in my phone it's not a big deal. I can just plug it in on the way to work or bring a battery pack. And it is not uncommon for my kid to bring our car home on empty. And then of course there are broken charges and unreliable utilities. I can't even count on a reliable internet connection wherever I go and that can be supplied wirelessly.
I have lived far enough out in the country before that I've had to deal with range anxiety in ICE vehicles. The threat of running out of gas before you can make it to a gas station is a very real and stressful issue. I can only imagine how much worse it is going to be when it takes more than just a gas can and a few minutes to get you going when you screw up.
If you live in the Balkans, you can hardly charge your electric car anywhere and if you go on holidays, It takes way longer, since you have to recharge multiple times and it takes a couple of hours.
Ok, what's your point? Did I say it's always and in every single niche scenario people are going to come up with a perception issue? Or did I in fact say it's largely (as in most of the time and in most cases) a perception issue?
It had just started to feel like people were trying to say that I thought range anxiety was absolutely never legitimate.
In reality most people will do maybe one journey a year where it could possibly be. For them they'll have saved so much from reduced maintenance and running costs of an EV that they could hire an ICE vehicle for that one trip and still have saved themselves money.
Of course if you're way off the top end of the bell curve with your usage an EV may not yet be the best option for you.
Yes, I was also a little extreme about range anxiety. There still are EVs, that have decently long range. The reliability is what we need with all technology. I'm actually interested what could actually break in them other than battery or storage chips.
the vast majority of the cost of an electric car is in the battery, every phone I've had really degrades in battery after a couple years, and my dad still drives an ICE car about the same age as me
Your argument is with electric cars vs ice cars. xkcd likely specifically was talking about engines just so all the range arguments don't work. It's just engine vs engine and there electric is far superior.
That's like saying a sword is a better weapon than a gun because the sword can bei used for cutting, hitting und thrusting and also as a tool while the gun can only hit and shoot while needing additional components to function that quickly run out while being more complex to build.
You cant just ignore the context to make your argument. He's clearly talking about cars here.
Well for the lawn mowers, I think it doesn't matter that much what specs you choose. You don't need to be comfortable using it if you don't mow the lawn every day, but it's still better if you choose a better, longer lasting product.
Specs absolutely matter. Incline of your lawn, outdoor outlet location, type of grass you have growing. I'd never recommend a plug in electric lawn mower to someone who needs to mow six acres of hills.
That said, electric mowers by and large are better for most consumers.
Sound depends on whether you value low noise. And not sure about tactile feeling, but ngl, the feeling of drivint an ICE car is awful after switching to EVs. The instant acceleration and responsiveness is just great.
As a US citizen I am painfully aware that I could dip down to mexico and buy a competent EV at 35~40k USD value in MXN. Alternatives in the states, even produced here, are upwards of 50k for the poverty model. Maybe the engine itself is cheaper, but the vehicles absolutely are not (unless you are being denied options by your government as part of an ongoing slap fight).
Real answer: power density. Pound for pound, gas still contains more energy than our best batteries. The weight of energy storage is still a massive deal for anything that cannot be tethered to a grid or be in close practical proximity for frequent recharging, from rockets, planes and cars (sometimes) to chainsaws and lawnmowers (sometimes).
A pound of dead battery doesn't help me when I'm camping 10km from the nearest access to the power grid. (There are actually powerlines not even a kilometre from my favourite campsite, but those are going to be measured in kV, and so aren't really useful to me.)
Now, if I had enough solar panels in a mobile setup, probably folding out of a trailer, I could make it work, but solar panels are expensive.
Sure, but even then there are plenty of cases where a solar panel doesn't make much sense either. If you're cutting down a tree in the woods, would you rather grab your gas-powered chainsaw out of your truck and cut down the tree, or grab your solar-powered chainsaw out of your truck, spend minutes setting up solar panels to pick up the small amount of sunlight which makes it to the forest floor, and then cut down the tree?
The point is there will always be a market for ICEs until there are batteries with competitive energy density to gasoline. You don't see solar- or battery-powered trains or construction/mining equipment because these things need huge amounts of energy to work, energy which can be easily stored in a fairly small fuel tank (which can be quickly topped off when necessary).
Absolutely, just like there's some things a horse can do that a car just can't.
I don't plan on buying a horse or needing to do those things, and I don't think the vast majority do either.
The end result is that there will still be ICEs in niche applications, but those who know how to operate them and the supply chains that currently make them cheap and dominant will slowly die off.
A dead battery is far worse than an empty jerry can, atleast the jerry can is light. Hell there are even some real nice collapsible ones and thats not even accounting for fuel bladders. Electric is useful but it is also rather rigid as well.
Electric car batteries have 270 Wh/kg (converts to 0.97 MJ/kg)
Gasoline has 46 MJ/kg
So the math here says electric gives you (0.97 * 77%) 0.75 MJ/kg output and gas gives you (46 * 30%) 13.8 MJ/kg output. Plus, as someone else said, spent gasoline no longer weighs you down.
I like the idea of electric, and I want to see it replace gas as soon as possible, but fair is fair.
And let's not forget that fueling your car requires a tank, a decently sized pump and 2 minutes of your time. A quick charge will hopefully charge your battery to 80% in 30 minutes, while giving you less km and running 300kW of power through hefty cables and big transformers, consuming the amount of energy that a family house consumes in a few days.
(And yes, battery manufacturing and disposal consume enormous amount of resources)
Electric and gas have different situations in which they shine. Gas/diesel engines are just a bunch of steel and some control chips, optimized in more thana century of technological development if we couls develop carbon neutral fuel, electric cars would not be needed. Unfortunately, it woulf be difficult to do at scale of current fuel consumption. More (electric, battery-less) public transport, less road goods transportation, more nuclear, electric for vehicles that move 100% of the time (delivery and logistic vehicles) and carbon-free fuel for other kinds of vehicles (personal transportation) is a good balance, in my personal, ignorant, armchair opinion.
The argument that I've heard is that electric cars aren't actually cleaner because of the pollution caused by mining the minerals required for the batteries.
I'm sorry but I'm too lazy to dig up links to back up my claim. But you are correct in that electric vehicles pollute far more being produced than combustion engine cars, however the electric vehicles gain that back over it's lifetime if your charge from mostly non-fossil sources. The figures I have read says that over the lifetime of a car, electrics output 70% less CO2 than combustion cars, and that includes the production of each of the cars.
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