theparadox ,

“Many of us built, whether it’s bought homes or whatever, based on this promise of stability,” Jesuthasan said. “There was this expectation that the tail was bigger. And we took on liabilities and obligations early on because of that tail. I think this generation has seen that tail dissipate.”

In other words, when millennials did what their parents did and assumed if they worked hard they’d get to live a decent life. Then they got fucked by companies whose priorities became getting as much out of their employees as possible while investing in those employees as little as possible.

As a millennial, I hated the idea of debt. As a result, I’ve had no debt beyond college loans despite being able to afford a lower middle class lifestyle. It took me never living alone (roommates, SOs) but I did it. The education was bullshit and the loans were obscene but I got a piece of paper that helped me keep my job. After working in the public sector for 20+ years I actually had my loans forgiven… and now rent is going through the roof to compensate. Still, I might actually own a home before I’m 50, assuming current and future landlords don’t decide to take me for all I’m worth.

When I finally own a home, I’m sure it’ll get washed away by the thirteenth “century flood” that year or some other bullshit thanks to climate change. So fucking glad I decided not to have kids. Fuck this world.

okamiueru , (edited )

That sounds like a horrible Kafkaesque nightmare. I fear my country is heading in the same direction. I’m saddened that it got so bad in the US, and that the “obvious steps in the right direction” were simply voted against. I’m reminded of the Community episode where they explore the alternative realities. We’re in the “Bernie lost to HIllary” one. Before that happened, I told a friend “Well… if Bernie loses, it’s all going to shit”. Sucks to have been right, although it started some time ago with Reagan gutting the middle class.

We either figure out how to redistribute wealth in the society in the next 30 years, or… “going to shit” will be the least of our problems.

TheDoctorDonna ,

If it makes you feel any better, the rent was going to skyrocket regardless of the loan forgiveness. That’s just the generations before us people trying to make sure they get to the top so they can pull the ladder up behind them.

We have no loan forgiveness here in Canada and rent is still going up faster than anyone can afford. It doesn’t help that all of the politicians are landlords.

EldritchFeminity ,

I just saw the other month that only like 46% of Millennials own a house, compared to the 65% average of other generations. And of those who don’t, 52% of them aren’t saving for a down payment, often because of how shitty wages and even finding a job are. On top of that, only 20% of houses are currently affordable for the average American worker, down from 60% in 2016. And people wonder why we have no faith in the system.

Gen Z saw what happened to Gen X and to us Millennials, and don’t expect it to get any better for them either.

trafficnab ,

My only hope for owning a home is my parents dying at this point

A perfect example of why is, my dad used to work at Boeing, made $30/hr in the 90s

I have a friend (of my generation) who also signed on at Boeing, they’re paying him $26/hr, 30 years later

skeezix ,

That extra $4 pays for the CEO’s superyacht.

trafficnab ,

It pays for the amazing views out the side of your depressurized 737, those don’t come cheap you know

downhomechunk ,
@downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

Millennial here. I was talking to my mom about this recently. We worked out the math of what I earn vs my dad at my age. Then we looked at what I laid for my house vs what they paid for theirs. For context, my parents still live in the same house I grew up in, and my house is in the same neighborhood and roughly the same size.

Their house in 1983 dollars would be about $165k today. My house was $275k in 2019, and that was well below most reasonable comps at the time. Now it’s supposedly worth $400k. At least that’s what my taxes and insurance are based on.

My dad had a solid white collar job. Not c suite, but firmly middle class at the time. I’m finally in a similar position after the 2008 and 2020 bullshit.

His salary when he was about 40 would be $140k in today dollars. I earn nowhere near that and have way more house debt.

Putting it in those terms was really eye opening for both of us. Most of my friends don’t have kids and don’t own a house. Shit, some still even live at home with their parents. We’re definitely not doing better than our baby boomer parents. The American dream died a generation or two before mine.

Dagwood222 ,

In 1960, minimum wage was $1.00/hour and the price of the average home was $11,000.00. Of course people wanted to work hard and save, because they could see that it paid off almost instantly.

BTW, in 1960 $1 million would buy a mansion, a few nice cars, and a couple of businesses. Today, it’s what a rich guy pays for a party.

DerisionConsulting ,

I wanted to see a graph, and couldn’t find one online.

It looks like, at least in the middle of Canada, being born between 1960 and 1980 was the ideal time if you wanted to buy a home.

This doesn’t take into account mortgage rates, tax rates, average household income, unemployment rates, or other cost of living expenses.
I just wanted a little chart, not to lose my whole day

In the middle of Canada; Winnipeg, MB:

Year Minimum wage House price Price/wage (lower is better)
1960 $0.66 $15,151 22,956
1970 $1.50 $51,678 34,452
1980 $3.15 $53,513 16,988
1990 $4.70 $87,173 18,547
2000 $6.00 $95,520 15,920
2010 $9.50 $231,411 24,359
2020 $11.90 $299,994 25,209

Lazy sources:
www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/history-min.html
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3TKC-H0omc
www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/…/dq980512-eng.htm

ShaggySnacks ,

Minimum wage had an increase of 1,703%. Housing had an increase of 1,880%.

SuddenDownpour ,

That early minimum wage growth is huge. 2,5x during 1960-70, then 2x 10 years later. Imagine minimum wage being $30 by 2030, then $60 by 2040.

DerisionConsulting ,

If we wanted things to keep pace with the house price to wage ratio of 1980(for people born in 1960), Minimum wage should’ve been $17.66 in 2020.

AngryCommieKender ,

In 1960 you could buy an estate in Beverly Hills, or La Jolla, for a cool $100,000

Showroom7561 ,

living over working

Yes, we all want that. But…

Are they eating air? Living with their parents? Accumulating debt?

What are their plans for the next 50 years, because living will get a hell of a lot harder than it is now.

We’ve all been forced to put work over life, just to survive long enough to work past retirement age.

Takios ,

You missed a word. It says “prioritizing living over working”. The promise was to work hard and a lot to get a good lifestyle (house, a nice car or two, vacations). Now it’s work hard but without those rewards in sight. So we cut back on working to a point where we can still have an okay lifestyle.

Showroom7561 ,

What does an OK lifestyle look like if you aren’t prioritizing work?

I’m not being critical to sound like an ass. I think we’re all stuck in the same, miserable, work-dependant lifestyle, and it’s aweful.

Takios ,

I realize I’m privileged as my situation is a lot better than having to live paycheck to paycheck. However, if I wanted to get a nice house, decent car, vacations, etc. I’d have to put in a lot more work than the usual 40 hours. Instead of doing that though I looked at my finances and decided, I could reduce my hours to 35 without decreasing my quality of life too much so I did that instead.

I do understand though that people in precarious and less-compensated jobs cannot afford this luxury.

Showroom7561 ,

Yeah, if you’ve got a high-paying job then you have the means to not have to prioritize work. Hopefully, that remains constant over the next several decades.

But how many Gen Z’ers are in that position?

We keep seeing articles about Gen Z’ers not being able to afford rent, let alone food and other basic comforts. They are, or will be, forced to put work first. Not just working harder to get the luxuries of their grandparents or parents, but working harder to scrape by.

And I don’t even see and end to this. Corporations will eventually abolish retirement, because very few will be able to retire the way things keep going.

Ookami38 ,

I think the idea is that a lot of people prioritize only their work. The whole hustle grindset thing, working obscene hours to try to get rich. Instead of doing that, seeing that whole rat race for what it is, doing enough work to get by, and then actually enjoying your time elsewhere seems to be what this is advocating for.

Showroom7561 ,

I think the idea is that a lot of people prioritize only their work.

Is this really a thing? Has it ever been for the masses?

Sure, people might prioritize work over anything else when they are young, but that’s often necessary to secure a future.

Other people live to work, but that’s pretty rare.

Instead of doing that, seeing that whole rat race for what it is, doing enough work to get by, and then actually enjoying your time elsewhere seems to be what this is advocating for.

I thought that what most people do. Does anyone actually believe that working hard at their low-paying job is going to make them rich? I thought that idea was dead decades ago.

Ookami38 ,

Just look at the hustle grindset, or sigma grind, or whatever you want to call it. No, most people aren’t working 120 hours a week at a McDonald’s, but a lot more are getting multiple jobs, side hustles, etc to get to “get ahead” in the game.

Showroom7561 ,

To get ahead or to get by? Nobody who’s grinding two or three jobs is wealthy, and I think they’re only doing it to pay the bills because a single job doesn’t cut it anymore.

I’ve spoken with uber drivers who already have a “good job” but they need money to support their parents who are living with them, perhaps multiple kids, etc. It really sucks to be in that situation because work is all you do.

Ookami38 ,

Do the minimum to put the food you like on the table, to afford a place to live, and then fuck off for the rest of the time. No OT, no projects outside of work hrs, no checking email overnight. Do your job, to the level that is strictly required, and reprioritize yourself any other time.

Showroom7561 ,

And you think that’ll allow you to retire at 65? 85?

Look, I get it. I don’t prioritize work over “life”, but I’m not naive to believe that I’ll have a comfortable retirement, because I won’t.

I think the majority of us will stuggle tremendously in the coming decades.

Ookami38 ,

I never said you’d be able to comfortably retire. That’s another part of it. The younger generations know they won’t retire at all, or at a reasonable time, so just do your 40, get enough to live, and go do something actually fulfilling.

Cracks_InTheWalls ,
@Cracks_InTheWalls@sh.itjust.works avatar

Most don’t expect to retire ever - they will work enough to survive until they die, naturally or otherwise.

Whether this is bleak realism or self-fulfilling, dangerous pessimism is an interesting question.

TheDoctorDonna ,

So because the generations before them made the wrong choice, they have as well?

If my kids live with my my whole life I am A-OK with that.

Showroom7561 ,

So because the generations before them made the wrong choice, they have as well?

I’m not punishing younger generations, I’m saying that they’re even more screwed than previous generations, so they’ll still need to work hard… it just won’t get them any luxuries.

If my kids live with my my whole life I am A-OK with that.

You might be, but not everyone wants that, especially in homes where there is no separation (like no basement apartment). That could be a nightmare for both parents and the adult child.

Ookami38 ,

I think you’re agreeing with each other, except that no one in this thread actually thinks working hard will bring you anything in this day and age.

Showroom7561 ,

I don’t think working hard these days will bring you anything except regrets later and life, and maybe put food on the table.

Ookami38 ,

I… Yeah? We’re agreeing with each other? What’s the argument?

Blackmist ,

Every generation does this. Gen Z can barely afford to.

They don’t really think middle aged man are going into work every day busting their plums, just so some cunt above them can buy a nicer car do they?

Bare minimum, every day, don’t get sacked. Winner.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

This just isn’t true in the US. There’s absolutely a culture among older generations here of people working their ass off for nothing. And those people look down on younger folks who aren’t as stupid as they are, and don’t give away their labor for free.

Crowfiend ,

“I just can’t imagine why anyone wouldn’t want to work!” --my grandma, who’s been supported by my grandpa’s money for as long as I can remember.

Yeah, the people who were brainwashed into thinking that ‘working just to work is great,’ are undeniably unconcerned with the rest of us, and far too many people think that way.

While it’s true that I would want to do something productive with my downtime, and not be wasting it on video games or whatever, I definitely don’t want to do it for some CEO or other higher power who cares as much about me, as I do about the ants in my yard.

EldritchFeminity ,

You’re falling for that propaganda too, a little bit; as are we all. We don’t need to be productive every moment of the day - hell, studies have shown that humans are only really productive about 4 hours out of the day. If you work a 9-5 style job, 4 hours of every day is spent doing things other than being productive. So don’t feel guilty for doing things just because they make you happy. Play video games, make Warhammer models, do silly little drawings that only you will ever see, whatever makes you happy, simply because that’s what life is about: doing things that make us happy. Time spent doing that is never time wasted, and screw the people that tried to convince entire generations that we only have worth as a person if we’re being “productive.”

Zeon ,

This.

TexMexBazooka ,

Not only look down on, but accuse younger generations of being “disrespectful” for not accepting them same level of exploitation from them.

CheeseNoodle ,

You get what you pay for, pay your employees shit and get shit. Completely remove all rewards for hard work and no ones going to be incentivized to do more than the bare minnimum.

iegod ,

It’s shocking how much bare minimum work happens, or how much tossing over the fence and “yeah we’re aware we’ll fix it later” style approaches happen at my job. We can’t hire the right level of expertise because we won’t pay for it. I’ve got a foot out the door and it really doesn’t matter where I go because it will be a raise for the same stupid kind of environment, but at least it’ll be a raise.

Got_Bent ,

At the last big boy firm I worked at, they set the metrics for getting a bonus so unrealistically high that it disincentived staff from even trying. It had a negative effect where everybody purposely did just enough to not get fired rather than killing themselves to come up short and get nothing.

They wanted something stupid like 2,500 billable hours which do not include meetings, continuing education, mandatory volunteer time, etc etc etc.

The biggest rock stars in the industry struggle to hit 2,000.

So we all dropped down to the 1,500 range because fuck that shit.

Mycatiskai ,

What was their reaction the next period? Did they lower the goal or double down and keep it high?

Got_Bent ,

Double down. I’m not sure what happened after. I left about six months later.

The few people who stuck it out have since ascended to great heights. At the time, our regional had been absorbed by a national. I think the regional guys were trying to play tough to show off to their new overlords.

I don’t know, but I suspect that the national was the lesser of those soul crushing forces.

Regardless, you’ve got to be a ruthless sociopath to make it big in that industry. Step on your mother’s grave in Jack boots to get one rung higher type of stuff.

I’ve been playing down in the minors for five years now for about one third the money I could’ve had by now if I had stayed. I regret nothing.

Mycatiskai ,

I’m currently a manager but I’m sending in a proposal this week to take a pay cut and work remotely in a non-manager role so I can move way north and get an acreage. Less responsibility, less money but better life. I like the company but I want a life not a career.

AngryCommieKender ,

2500 / 40 = 62.5

They expected you to work an additional 10.5 weeks, and didn’t count half your duties? No wonder you guys didn’t even try.

Kusimulkku ,

I’m so fucking tired reading articles about boomers this, millenials that, zoomies this.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

All I see is author projection.

Dagwood222 ,

What you’re seeing is the result of decades of Reaganomics coming home to roost.

Look up Hunter’ Thompson’s book about the “Hell’s Angels.” There’s a chapter on the economics of being a biker/hippie/artist circa 1970.

A biker could work six months as a Union stevedore and earn enough to live on the road for two years, and a part time waitress could support herself and a musician boyfriend.

Perhapsjustsniffit ,

X’er here. Been doing this my entire life. Fuck the corporate overlords. Everyone should prioritize life over work. Unfortunately for most the world is against them in this regard.

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

For you what does prioritizing life over work look like exactly? Genuinely curious.

Psythik ,

It means only working as hard as you’re paid to. If the multi-billion dollar megacorp you’re working for is only paying you $18/hr, you only put in an $18/hr effort; i.e. Work just barely hard enough to not get fired.

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I was curious about Perhapsjustsniffit but thanks for your input as well

jjjalljs ,

Yeah, this is generally an ok attitude.

The only exception I think is worth thinking about is “Don’t minimum-ass it in a way that makes it suck for your peers.” Like, don’t work nights and weekends to hit unrealistic goals, agreed. But like I won’t push up half-assed untested code that you’re going to have to maintain. I’m having trouble coming up with good examples off the top of my head.

timmy_dean_sausage ,

That’s the style I generally strive for. I take pride in doing my job well, living up to standards that I set for myself. I also don’t do anything extra and will leave a job site if a job is designed in a way that has me sitting around waiting on other people. I say no to employers/clients all the time and will happily/tactfully explain why, if asked. My employers/clients know that it’s a two way street with me, and I will not be exploited or let anyone on my team (on a given day) be exploited. Unfortunately, I had to spend over a decade being exploited to get to the point in my career were I’m valuable enough to be able to put my foot down. So there’s that…

saintshenanigans , (edited )

The Corp is giving you the bare minimum they are legally required to give you, so you should do the same. This means clocking out at 5 sharp, and not picking up extra responsibilities without a pay increase.

But it also means you still have to put in the minimum required, show up on time, do all of the work. But keep in mind the Corp is the enemy here, not your coworkers. Don’t leave them waiting on you for a deadline if you can bust it out in a few minutes

Psythik , (edited )

That’s a great point and actually a perfect example of how I really feel when I say “work hard enough to not get fired”. Should also add, “so long as it’s not at the expense of your coworkers” to that saying.

AnarchistArtificer ,

For one of my friends, who I respect greatly, it means coming to terms with the fact that it’s not plausible for them to get a job that they’re passionate, in their field of study. They have less identity based attachment to the job they do have, and whilst they do generally like their job, they see it as a means to an end.

They know they probably could find a better job, perhaps even one in their field, but they’re happy with the balance of priorities they have now because it’s mostly working.

stoly ,

The old way was to convince people to devote their lives to the company, only to be laid off when convenient. The new way is to treat a job like a job and live your own life.

saintshenanigans ,

Job keeps me fed, housed, sane, and puts some fun money in my pocket. The second it fails at any one of those, start looking.

jj4211 ,

For me, it’s shutting out work correspondence right at 5pm. Working from home most of the time. If some life circumstance vaguely demands my time in a way that conflicts with work, the life circumstance will win.

It’s not horribly absolute. I did connect when I got a request to help some customers in Ukraine, figuring the very least I could do was help them out. Another customer that generally represents 30-40 million a year of revenue needed help off hours in December, and I obliged. In the event of a genuine emergency I’ll be flexible (but in a hurry to get it over with, even if it means “slap flex tape on it and it should hold things over” sort of approach).

Keep in mind this is grading on a curve. A close colleague works in person at the office 6 or 7 days a week, generally for 9 or 10 hours, and on top of that spends much of his home time remotely working on things too. He complains that if not everyone matches his work ethic that we won’t hit “the schedule”, and I respond if that’s the case, then there’s a problem with “the schedule”, not with people failing to work enough. Eternally poor planning with arbitrarily declared deadlines are not a legitimate source of emergency, and I won’t play along with that.

Perhapsjustsniffit , (edited )

I’m 50 now. I’ve never held a job more than 5-6 years my entire life and I have changed professions many many times. I never bought into that work till you die life. I only worked to be able to afford the things I actually wanted and I prioritized adventure over stability. I moved all around the country (Canada) and travelled internationally by holding a job long enough to get to the next place and so on. I’ve recently learned I probably have ADHD which could account for some of my lifestyle choices.

After I was married my wife and I decided to start working toward a zero bill goal. We paid off all of our bills and eliminated wherever we could. We prioritized getting in nature and our own form of travel over keeping up with the Jones’. We saved everything else and invested what seemed a meager $500 into canadian cannabis just prior to legalization. Mostly on a whim. I personally learned to trade and moved that until it was enough to buy a house and some land where no one else wanted to live. We put some minor infrastructure in to help us grow food and invested in our land. All other investments, savings and any so called retirement went towards being mortgage free with enough space and the infrastructure to grow our own food. We have zero savings and less need for even a bank account than most. We recognise we were and are fortunate to get to where we are now. There was a lot of luck along the way.

Now we have a family. Our house bills include yearly taxes, internet and unfortunately power. Our truck is 16 years old and paid for. We forage, fish and hunt and grow pretty much all our own veg. I don’t work due to serious illnesses (yay Canada that I’m not way in debt there) and my spouse works about 5 months out of the year at a seasonal job so I don’t drive her crazy. We make less than $35,000/ Canadian a year and that’s enough. Our three kids wear second hand clothes except for outerwear because being dry and warm is important, they know how to pirate and adblock and they can grow food and cook. Our wants are few which makes our needs even less.

recapitated ,

Yeah I mean mad magazine was talking about gen x like this back in the 90s. But the media needs to pretend everything today is new or they’d have nothing to print.

jj4211 ,

Also, if you see some of the articles and movies from the 60s/70s, they were saying all this stuff about baby boomers too.

I saw somewhere where they gathered examples of “people in their 20s don’t want to work the same way the folks in their 40s did at their age” dating back to at least the mid nineteenth century.

I’ve also seen the point made that a lot of the assumptions about the boomers having it nice and easy comes from media products that strategically wanted to frame things as doing great, as they thought that’s what drove media consumption, folks wanting to feel good about the world. Now the general understanding is keeping people in an eternal state of panic and dread will keep those eyeballs glued to the product. Bad stuff happened back then too, and plenty of it should have been a more prominent source of dread by today’s standards.

Further, to the extent it was true, it was mostly a USA thing coming from a couple of phenomenon: -Every other major industrial economy had been severely impacted by World Wars I && II, with USA barely having a scratch. So for a good while, most of the economic activity favored the USA across the globe. -Factors like racism where huge swaths of the USA population ‘didn’t count’ when people were thinking how good things were going.

stoly ,

Checking in. We’re some of the few who didn’t adopt the boomer dream.

TheSanSabaSongbird ,

But we’re also demographically a lot smaller than boomers, millennials or zoomers, so we kind of flew under the radar.

stoly ,

Yep. Gen X didn’t really exist.

BeautifulMind , (edited )
@BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

Also genX, I went hard in corporate life for a long time, survived many rounds of layoffs and watched good friends go for reasons that are bad ones- until one fine day I was laid off with 18,000 others. Meanwhile they kept hiring H1B workers and doing stock buybacks and doing mass-layoffs every 2 years to keep the regional labor market full of competition and wages depressed. Knowing that they’re not interested in keeping their promises of stability and prosperity goes a long ways towards me never going above and beyond

Drivebyhaiku ,

Agreed, , basically what the article here is saying that the kids were watching us and they don’t trust anybody. Hell, I never heard my Grand dad yell louder about what I am making. He worked union construction in the 80’s in the city I live in now and though I make more than a lot of construction guys I know on a similar docket I’m only making about 3$ more than what he did back then. He ranted for an hour when I told him what the standard rents and apartment sizes in my area. There is nothing so satisfying as having an stenetorian 86 year old positively enraged on behalf of the kids about their pay, working conditions and quality of life.

It’s been my personal mental balm to the placid incuriousity and damn near sociopathic lack of empathy I catch off some of the boomers and the elder millenials who picked up trades work immediately after highschool.

raynethackery ,

Also GenX. Not being able to afford treatment for mental illness robbed me of 20 years of living. I had better insurance in the 90s than I do now. Never thought I would miss my HMO from then.

aidan , (edited )

“If you like your plan you can keep it”

youtu.be/tLOV4oUXawg?si=vyTfxboTQUdLrcGD

fosforus ,

Everyone should prioritize life over work.

I agree. But also: nobody should expect others to carry them. You have to balance these two things in your life.

Since many people here are American, I feel like I need to clarify a bit. I live in a country where almost nobody works over 7,5h per day. And when they do, every hour is compensated for, sometimes with 150%/200% surcharge. I find it extremely weird that some people in a 1st world country work overtime for free, or generally speaking “work” over 8 hours per day in intellectual work on a regular basis.

HubertManne ,
@HubertManne@kbin.social avatar

many genx i know to and im guessing millenial as well.

tigerjerusalem ,

It reeks of those headlines saying that millenials/gen zs are “losing interest in buying cars and houses”.

Motherfucker, interest has nothing to do with it. We can’t afford it!

AngryCommieKender ,

Well interest does come into it. Y’all can’t afford the interest payments on the loans you’d need. Can’t even find a decently priced used car.

tigerjerusalem ,

Oooh, cool word play! I like it.

Also, I find it funny* that we somehow can afford rent but are not qualified to pay a mortgage with monthly payments that costs the same.

*enraging

chrizzowski ,

I think this is a huge part of the problem. Rental property owners are just a liability buffer for the banks. There should be mortgages at a 1% down payment for first time buyers with a proven track record of making rent payments on time. Maybe the rates are a little higher, with the extra interest giving the banks motivation for taking on the extra risk. Then after the first term the owner can renew with a normal rate.

Doesn’t help with the demand issue, but maybe all the rentals will flood the market after nobody is being punished for not having $100k laying around because they’re busy paying someone else’s carrying costs.

Mango ,

We can afford rent?

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The article talks about millenials not being able to afford houses…

tigerjerusalem ,

I know… I read about it on other sources too and mixed the headlines too. Sorry for the confusion.

DillyDaily ,

Right, like the majority of my millennial friends also work to live, not live to work, it’s just that living is so damn expensive that after we’re done working enough to pay rent, there’s not many hours left in the week to live.

I’m incredibly privileged. I have no debt, no loans, and housemates to split bills with. I only do 20 hours of paid work per week, and my hourly rate is pretty damn decent for my industry (I’m a coordinator in a community centre, I make $32AUD an hour).

I enjoy my work life balance and I wouldn’t have it any other way, I have time to care for my chronic illness properly, and time for friends, and family, and to volunteer in my community for passion projects that could never in a million years pay the bills.

But being in your mid thirties and splitting rent with other people is tough, I fortunately don’t want marriage or kids, but I can’t see how I’d make it work if I did, babies can’t help me split the rent, and most housemates don’t want to live with a crying baby that isn’t theirs.

So when my friend leaves his fun job for a grind company we know sucks our your soul, but it pays 8x as much and it’s “just for 2 years until the deposit is saved for and the baby is born” then it’s completely understandable why the next 24 months of my friends life is consumed with work. Because he needs that work now, so that he can live later.

But 2 years becomes 5 years becomes 10 years because first it’s the GFC, then it’s the housing bubble, then it’s the mini recession, then it’s covid, now it’s whatever the fuck times were living in.

And at some point for millennials (and many younger Gen X’ers) living became surviving and we work to survive, we don’t even know what thriving looks like.

CurlyMoustache ,
@CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a milennial. I live in a country where we try not to work ourselves to death. Even my employer encourages an active separation between work and personal life. I do not remember what my monthly or yearly salary is, but I am able to have a good personal life with alot of spare time and money for my hobbies.

When I talk to my friends over the pond to the west, I’m always shocked about what I hear. 40+ hour workweeks, hardly any time off from work, etc. I also have a couple of friends in Japan, and their stories are actually worse compared to across the western pond.

Me and my girlfriend rent, which is somewhat unheard of around here. After the war, the economy was based on owning your own home. I made a few stupid choices when I was in my 20s, and I’m paying for them now by renting. The prices of homes are skyrocketing, so that every time I save some money, the prices increase and I have to save more to get a loan. Tough luck, but that’s the way it is. I do not want to get a side hustle just to kill my self getting enough money to buy my home.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

a future-of-work expert

Saw the writing on the wall and just invented a new job.

Gork ,

“Robots are taking our jerbs”

leo ,
@leo@lemmy.l0l.city avatar

I wish I had that kind of foresight

Jakdracula ,
@Jakdracula@lemmy.world avatar

America isn’t a country, it’s just a business. That business minded model for society has drained all decency out of it. The US is a kleptocratic, psychopathic, oligarchy that has rotted out the brains of formerly decent people who have become the monsters we all see in stories like these. It will take multiple generations to fix this, if that is even possible.

GrayBackgroundMusic ,

America isn’t a country, it’s just a business

It’s three businesses in a country sized trench coat.

niktemadur , (edited )

Your brainwashed mesmerized grandparents and their lazy non-voting baby boomer children let Reagan through the door in no uncertain terms, and in that environment the 80s “hostile corporate takeover” and junk bonds fever set in; with bottomless greed as the virus, which like herpes, seems to stick around forever.

EDIT: a word

Tinidril ,

Lazy voters stayed home and let Trump in. (With a strong assist from the Democratic party.). That’s not what happened with Reagan. Reagan had incredibly broad popular support. I don’t know if that’s more or less damning of American voters, but no amount of additional turnout would have saved Carter.

Chakravanti ,

It’s not a psychopath. It’s a sociopath.

ThatWeirdGuy1001 ,
@ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

It’s both.

Most CEOs match all the criteria for psychopathy or sociopathy

fosforus ,

Clearly more than the average, but not “most”. Last I remember the figure was something like 12%.

In a small company it sure makes a difference if your senior management are sociopaths, but if the company is large enough that you’ll never see the CEO I’m not sure what difference does it make that he doesn’t care about you personally.

a_wild_mimic_appears ,

those 12% are loud tho, and tend to shift the “company-overton-window” :-(

Chakravanti ,

You’re just wrong. Psychopath is just a less skilled version of the same damn thing. They don’t make it CEO’s except that rare instance of inheriting the wealth. Then, sure, we get a great example of it like Elon. But then they’re just that.

ThatWeirdGuy1001 ,
@ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world avatar

As a diagnosed sociopath you have it completely backwards.

Chakravanti ,

You would say so wouldn’t you?

Melatonin ,

OF COURSE we prioritize life over work. Normal people always have. That doesn’t mean we don’t work. What is life without work? Amusing ourselves to death?

BellyPurpledGerbil ,

It’s the imbalance that’s always been the problem. People want to work, but many have to work to survive. So every day is a struggle for survival. It’s no wonder we’re seeing a rise in anxiety disorders, depression, suicide, and general health decline across the board. Some day every late stage capitalist society will normalize the kind of work culture we see in China, South Korea, and Japan, where people are worked to death and have no time for themselves. No time and no safety net for starting families. And paid just enough to get by, not to thrive.

I’m with the younger generations here. I’d rather amuse myself to death than work myself to death.

Melatonin , (edited )

“You better start swimming or you’ll sink like a stone

For the times, they are a-changin’”

-Dylan

Everybody, everybody has to work to survive, from aboriginal people, to the most developed country, to the most socialized country in the world. It has always been thus, and that does not explain rising anxiety, depression, suicide, or health decline.

Abuses of workers and exploitive attempts to move toward a serfdom where no worker owns anything have existed as long as humans have been selfish. It’s not the result of a political system.

The French in the 1700s didn’t lay down and amuse themselves when exploited. Neither did the American colonies. Neither did Russia. Neither did China. It might be time to stop dropping out, give up on comfort, and start the hard work of getting shit fixed.

Hey everybody, you’re anxious and depressed because you know you have to do something about it and you don’t want to. Maybe you even know you’re going to let it happen.

Misconduct ,

I think you took a wrong turn at Facebook and ended up here on accident bro

Melatonin , (edited )

Haha, good one

But seriously, what’s supposed to change? It’s there going to be a friendly helpful Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos or even Elon Musk? Honest public-minded politicians?

Look at Germany right now. HUGE protests.

You aren’t powerless. You just aren’t doing anything.

aidan ,

I disagree, individualistic societies work less. It is people who are taught they have a responsibility to society that work more.

GrayBackgroundMusic ,

Not gen z, but God bless 'em. I came to the same conclusion after the first round of layoffs at my first job. They laid off the experts because they had higher salaries and kept the lower paid, less skilled workers. It was completely absurd. Then it happened again, and again. Why would I ever expect my work to treat me with any loyalty or concern when no employer has even shown me or mine any?

catalog3115 ,

Companies were never loyal to worker not in 80s and not now. They are loyal to profit 😁

sibannac ,

I want to put the effort I give earning money to be put towards bettering my life. All my lemons are being juiced for someone else’s lemonade.

LemmyKnowsBest ,

I agree. And I got extreme with it. because when it comes to making sure all the money we earn goes to ourselves and to our own betterment, the biggest obstacle in the way is the egregious cost of housing. In order to get on top of that hurdle, we either have to become part of the real estate industry, or entirely opt out of it. Well I entirely opted out of it.

VanLife. Yup I’ve been doing van life for the last 3 years. Complete with Solar panels, plumbing, climate control, bedroom, kitchen, storage space. I am in my van right now in one of my membership gym’s parking lot. Every dime I earn goes to me and to whatever I choose, NOT to the extortionate housing industry.

meep_launcher ,

I’ve lost all trust in employers. From large corporations to non-profits to mom and pop to tech startups- I’ve been in it all and I learned businesses do 2 things to their employees:

  1. They lie to you
  2. They underpay you

I’m now freelance musician and teacher and I’m on track to make more than any employer paid me. I’m still in debt after having the rug pulled from under me from my last job, but I’m digging my way out on my own. I will never let one person be in control of my income ever again.

fosforus ,

I’m now freelance musician and teacher and I’m on track to make more than any employer paid me.

That’s great! Is there some part of this that you think doesn’t fit into free market capitalism? Seems like you’re living the original american dream there.

ZzyzxRoad ,

Is there some part of this that you think doesn’t fit into free market capitalism?

This might be the most passive aggressive comment I’ve ever read.

The answer of course would be “not working for someone else.”

sailormoon ,
@sailormoon@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/44830202-ce11-4dcb-a70c-ca3fd845c15b.jpegThis you?

LemmyKnowsBest ,

No. There is a classy way to do it. I’m doing it the classy way.

AtariDump ,

Right. Which is why I found this photo:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/a14c4ca2-7d2f-48f7-8fb5-2f074bb52df8.jpeg

Sagifurius ,

Yeah no…So every communist either: !) Figures out how to not be a worker and then abandons the thought 2)Actually manages to be in the revolutionary council but may get assassinated later on 3)Never had any motivation at all, writes articles like this.

Drivebyhaiku ,

Bro, stop saying “communist” you are just embarrassing yourself.

Can I put forward a motion that we start treating this cringe McCarthist shit like the edgelord fodder it properly is and make those who use Communist scarecrows the laughingstock they deserve to be ? Like these idiots can’t grasp Market Socialism to save their life and are still high on gas lighting from the 1980’s.

Sagifurius ,

I’m not American or a fan of market socialism, because I understand it perfectly well, not because of a lack of understanding. Socialism always leads to greater restrictions on the person, and you can’t deny that, your cronies literally advocate for it. Take socialized medicine, politicians immediately start passing laws and regulations to restrict your choices in order to keep costs down, and present it as ethical because “we’re all in this together”. Next thing you know, a workers compensation board has reached the level of petty that a carpenter can be fined for wearing a sleeveless shirt in July, a rule passed because of the risk of sunburn to the shoulder. I am not making this up, I was the carpenter.

Drivebyhaiku ,

Oh Baby cakes! I know socialism passes restrictions on people but are you seriously so petty that you blame workers protections nipping you for wearing a light shirt on sunny day as the height of your problems? Courting sunstroke on a worksite isn’t fucking smart.

And I am sorry but if your government is cutting costs to your healthcare you should probably organize because even a good system needs occasional correction. It’s a long fucking way from letting people be swamped with debt to keep their loved ones alive just a little bit longer. I know people in perpetual fear that a spate of unemployment will destroy their long term health because they can’t afford the insurance themselves. No system is perfect but you can whine about it not meeting your standards but private healthcare is only so great as you keep working. You get fucked up at work and all those “choices” you’re so proud of are just gone.

Sagifurius , (edited )

It was an example how fast they can start micromanaging the smallest details, and you knew that. You don’t think a government had time to make rules like that is an issue? You’re intentionally missing the point, they’ve done this to all aspects of society. I want the fucking guns back too, and any semblance of national pride. You organize anything effectively, the current federal government invokes the war measures act and rescinds it immediately as soon as the review process starts, because there was a glaring loophole left in the old legislation, that it doesn’t get reviewed to see if it was necessary, if they quit using the power in time. We literally have zero rights in Canada because of this

Drivebyhaiku , (edited )

… The War Measures Act? The one that was repealed in like the 80’s?

Wait, are you griping about the Emergencies act? The one that requires the sign off of two levels of democraticly elected government Provincial and Federal and a full independantly run inquest every time it is enacted? Ohhhh you’re a Convoy cocksucker! It all makes sense now.

There are exactly two places in the world out of the host of existing democracies that have a constitutional right to firearms with zero public safety checks requiring limitations like licencing and and if you like the US or Guatemala’s gun policy and private healthcare system that much you can just move there instead of ruining this country by trying to turn us into America’s mini-me.

And really? No protections? You really REALLY don’t understand Canadian law at all do you? You know… You could actually read the results of the inquest right? It’s been out for a year.https://web.archive.org/web/…/final-report/

Or maybe you just think even the most soft touch of the protective measures a government makes to protect the welfare of the people and infrastructure key to it’s it’s ability to operate is too harsh ? No wonder you’re so upset, you just can’t handle a democratically elected body telling you that you can’t do absolutely anything you want because you are an entitled whiny baby. Grow up.

Sagifurius ,

So you don’t remember the government claiming it needed a 30 day extension and then suddenly deciding it didn’t need it at all, when the Senate made it clear they were actually going to review whether it was needed? That the two levels you’re talking about? Cause they dodged that you authoritarian clown.

Drivebyhaiku , (edited )

You mean that time the commission heading the report I linked said they wouldn’t have their homework done on time because they still had work to do on the French half of the report to have it ready to got to meet Canada’s national language requirements to have a full bilingual document and then managed to get everything polished off in time with the translation? Yeah they didn’t need two levels of government to rubber stamp a time extension on the report because no one is generally harmed.

Ohhhh no… We’re all gunna fall into ruin because they cared about the longstanding efficacy paperwork… Dumb shit. Don’t believe what your Conservative asswipes try and feed you. They know you won’t bother doing your own fucking homework.

Sagifurius ,

The kangaroo commission that was exactly akin to police investigating themselves after they dodged a risk of real oversight.

Sagifurius ,

cbc.ca/…/emergencies-act-federal-court-1.7091891

Drivebyhaiku ,

What you think this is a gotcha? This is normal process for when a law that has never been enacted before gets used for the first time and gets challenged. This is part of how the system works. Laws are drafted and passed but basically inert until they are used. A law that is never used never has victims or damages. Only once laws are used can their use be challenged if they do not fit their internal rules exactly (because real life is messy and law drafts inexact) then they go under review. If one Justice kicks up a stink it goes to the Supreme court. The Supreme court decides if the laws were correctly followed. News anchors love the red flag stage because it’s prime drama and people gobble up any implications of “government overreach” like it’s proven fact which feeds their suspicions about how they are living under tyranny.

If the Supreme Court does find the government DID overreach then there will be rulings to appease damages. One justice is not the Supreme court. Even if they rule it was an improper use this continues to be a normal exercise of democracy BECAUSE the government will pay and face consequences. It is a ultimately GOOD thing that this is going under review.

The Justice system in Canada is fairly impartial because they are not an elected body but “what is the law” is at heart a philosophy question so not every judge rules the same. That’s why they have a big panel of them for these courts. To ensure that a majority of senior executors of the law conclude fairly.

To be frank this is the normal check to the Government. Those rights you were claiming we don’t have are being defended by this system of internal review with potential consequences FOR THE GOVERNMENT. These are your rights being defended, BUT they have not yet been proven to be violated, basically an alarm has been raised as it should in cases lile this and they have to go figure out if it was a burglar or a cat.

What you people don’t seem to fucking get is that the system has safeguards. They are being used effectivly but all this requires a bunch of people with full time jobs to prepare, debate, deliberate and fine tooth comb everything. It takes time because legal challenges at this level take years to resolve but that doesn’t keep pace with the 24 hour news cycle that wants you stupid, mad and plugged in RIGHT NOW and the Opposition party will use any dirty trick to use your conditioned suspicions to their advantage. You are falling for the grift. You can stay mad and clutch your guns to your chest like a security blanket and wave your flag all day but the system is functioning. This act was in effect only ACTIVE for 10 days of the 90 made possible by the passing of the original permissions. The Government applied the law to their understanding of the draft and accepted the risk of all of this with full knowledge of the legal consequences to the government. Now the courts figure out if the force used was excessive and that will make precedent to limit any future uses of the act.

That’s the system.

Sagifurius ,

It’s not really new legislation. It’s a mildly updated war measures act. Anyways, an actual legal scholar just disagreed with you and the kangaroo commission.

Drivebyhaiku , (edited )

“Mildly”… Uh no. The War measures act conflicted with the Human Rights act and was amended to reflect the civil rights protections. The two do not look even remotely alike.

While I agree the Emergencies Act isn’t “new” legislation because it was drafted 30 years ago I take umbrage with your idea that that is the relevant issue. It sat on the books in mint condition never used for a very long time. It may not be new but the seal is freshly popped.

So.

The government can technically draft any law they want (provided it doesn’t explicitly violate constitutional protections at time of draft) but that it doesn’t mean that the exercise of those laws protect the government from the consequences of using them if the enactment is incorrect or if it violated constitutional rights in the enactment beyond the original scope… A law never used is just legal theory. You can debate it but it was passed and it’s a pain to remove from the books and you usually need to put something in it’s place to do a similar job if it’s there for a “potential” use to defend against something that may or may not happen.

The Emergencies act is in effect brand new in the system because it has only recently effected actual humans and the law can now be applied to evaluate the effect in it’s actual real world use and actual people can be the recipients of compensation for damages.

That “kangaroo Court” is no fucking joke. The government could stand to lose millions of dollars in damages if the door is opened to removing civil case protections… Which is why the Supreme Court is an independent body thay concerns itself with the charge of defending the law. Governments come and go but that’s the oath they take is binding for life or until they retire from the court at age 75.

Elected representatives are not generally experts in law, they are just provided guidance by system appointes experts to protect themselves from potential liability… but those experts are not the Supreme court panel. The justice system is a bunch of people whose life work is the protection and binding law to protect the welfare of the citizens of Canada and the democratic process because they have legitimate enforcement power and perform the duties of being a check to the temporary power of individual administrations.

Sagifurius ,

You aren’t even arguing against the statements made, just blowing irrelevant bullshit.

Drivebyhaiku ,

I see your brain shorted out but your ego is still chugging along. If you can’t see the relevance maybe you should spread some dust bane around that empty head of yours, close up shop and give it a real college try on another day sport.

Sagifurius ,

You don’t even seem to know what in particular I was referring to as being “Kangaroo”.

Drivebyhaiku ,

Enlighten me then.

profdc9 ,

You’re not even number two.

NewAgeOldPerson ,

Of course not. That’s Bono.

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