Continuumguy ,

THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS AS I WATCH:

  • NOOO, I DON’T WANT THIS TO END!
  • Previously: The various stuff happened.
  • Oh, hey, Cayuga captains log.
  • Nice of them to have a colony modeled after an Earth town. Saves on budget.
  • “SIGNAL LOST.” In space, a dropped call can mean only one thing: Invasion.
  • Oh, we’re doing the Independence Day thing?
  • Telling a Starfleet captain to just do reconnaissance is basically telling them to go weapons free.
  • Nice little tinge of one of the TOS scores at the end of the cold open. Someone more geekier than I can probably place it.
  • If you ever feel like you are useless in life, just remember that there is a “skip intro” button during a “Space, the Final Frontier” monologue.
  • Is the “Gorn Protocol” a hand-cannon with with a diamond?
  • She flies the ship!
  • I’d like to imagine there is a deleted scene where they glue every piece of junk they have onto the shuttle.
  • If they’re going to do a “is someone still alive in the wreckage” storyline, they probably should have flip-flopped Batel and Chapel’s spots, given that we obviously know she’s going to live.
  • They keep giving Jenna Mitchell lines! FREE MITCHELL! Give that actreess a cast credit, cowards!
  • Ah, a good old fashioned beam into the sky.
  • Oh, look, a Gornzooky!
  • And… vaporized.
  • More Gornzookies!
  • Oh my god, it’s young Scotty. Hopefully this means Keenser is there. I always loved Keenser and his ability to sit on things he isn’t supposed to.
  • Doesn’t seem like Keenser is there :(
  • Of course Scotty would engineer a way to save people. He truly is a miracle worker.
  • Smashing a piece of space debris is a very… brilliant idea.
  • Pelia continuing to harass Una for her poor academics in engineering.
  • Why do I get the feeling that whatever plan Spock has to put the rockets on the hull will also allow him to check for survivors?
  • Wow, imagine that, Chapel is alive! Imagine that! Whoever would have thought! (Seriously they should have flip-flopped her and Batel if they were going to do this)
  • USE THE MORSE, CHRISTINE!
  • Oh, now she grabs the spacesuit. Although I guess she didn’t need it yet.
  • WARNING: GORNZOOKY
  • COMMAND CODE INVALID’
  • That looks like a bigger Gorn. An adult? Or at least like a teenager.
  • So incredibly Alien.
  • “GET YOUR HANDS OFF HIM, YOU BITCH!”
  • Oh shit, she’s been impregnated with gornzookies. A very zombie movie trope.
  • “There’ll be time later.” Before or after you get engaged to Dr. Korby?
  • “We need to abort some Gornzookies.”
  • Yeah, Scotty would be a shitty student despite being brilliant.
  • OH FUCK THE GORN KIDNAPPED THEM
  • TO BE CONTINUED?!?!!?! Okay, who wants to drive to Hollywood and personally beat up some billionaires? I want this strike over NOW and I want a conclusion WITHIN A YEAR, A YEAR AND A HALF MAX!
michaelgemar ,
@michaelgemar@mstdn.ca avatar

@Continuumguy @startrek If Starfleet has weapons that work against the Gorn, why keep them secret?!

angstrom ,

(Ignoring sloppy writing as the reason…)

Star Fleet seems to like to compartmentalize information. Examples:

At least post ‘First Contact’ they had hints of the Borg before ‘Q Who’ but kept it quiet. Similarly the Genesis device information was on a need to know basis (although probably for good reason). There was also that Voyager episode based around the Omega directive that only Janeway knew about.

TheDubh ,

Also didn’t they mention it’s basically untested. So no point rolling out weapons in mass till you have a chance to verify they work. It’s just cause false hope, or risk additional lives if they don’t work.

Hogger85b ,

I think they are still trying diplomacy with the gorn, admiral april says they want to try to bring them in and see if they can be allies. Star fleet doesn't want to be outward threat

Also I think admirals are downplaying the gorn threat, maybe not to scare citizens

felixxx999 ,

I want to know what ST fan actually skips the openings. Especially SNW, LD, DS9… yes the French Horns rock.

thefatone ,

Strangely LD seems to me to be THE MOST CATCHY Star Trek theme. Every time I hear it it’s playing in my head for the next 24 hours. Not saying it’s the best, it’s great, but goddamn does it burrow its way into my brain

original_reader ,

It’s been a long road, getting from there to here…

twopaw ,
@twopaw@meow.social avatar

@original_reader @felixxx999 https://www.dropbox.com/s/wiqz0cl579wxg6a/Faith%20Of%20The%20Heart%20%28Garth%20Vocals%29%20%282-11-2021%29%20001.mp3?dl=0

original_reader ,

Now I am sitting here not knowing what to do with this.

twopaw ,
@twopaw@meow.social avatar

@original_reader I'd like you to listen to and enjoy it, if you'd like to do both. Hang on, this might be easier than the DropBox remote link:

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

The more I think about the Chapel plot, the more I think it was a blunder.

If she survived the initial attack on the Cayuga, it’s likely that others did, too - at the very least, it should give Spock a reason to look before hot-dropping the saucer onto the planet.

Zoboomafoo , (edited )
@Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net avatar

Agreed, the entire saucer section was on the Federation side of the line of demarcation, they could have openly had rescue teams checking for survivors

JohnnyDelirious ,

Which does raise the question of why there was a Gorn aboard the wreck of the Cayuga.

The Gorn drew up the demarcation line and broadcast it to the Federation, held their fire as promised, and did not consider the arrival of another Gorn ship as a hostile action.

So the Enterprise sending a shuttle to check the parts of the Cayuga’s wreckage for survivors is something that appears permitted and even expected, so long as it doesn’t cross the line.

But any such rescue party would then bump into this lone Gorn who was very clearly violating the demarcation line that they themselves proposed.

Sort of feels like the attack on the colony was unplanned, and that the later Gorn ship was playing damage control while trying to figure out what happened.

Zoboomafoo ,
@Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net avatar

Sort of feels like the attack on the colony was unplanned, and that the later Gorn ship was playing damage control while trying to figure out what happened.

That’s consistent with what they theorized regarding the solar flares causing the first ship to attack the colony.

That’s the best explanation I’ve heard, and I’m going to stick with it until a better one comes along

tdriley ,
@tdriley@mas.to avatar

@JohnnyDelirious @Zoboomafoo One moment Spok is frantically trying to find Chapel on the Kayuga, but then doesn’t even mention survivors when they plan to crash it. It’s too much of a stretch. There must be some key plot here they deliberately didn’t show us. We don’t see the initial attack on the Kayuga at all. Why was the lone Gorn (stuck?) on that side of the line trying to access command codes on a destroyed ship? I think we’ll get a revealing flashback in S03E01.

Zoboomafoo ,
@Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net avatar

Agreed about the survivors part, it seems like a major oversight that I hope they can explain in a satisfying way.

As for the Gorn on the ship, I presumed it was just a crewman trying to gather intelligence on the Federation by picking through the remains of the saucer section

eva_sieve ,

Gotta agree, it seems like an unforced error. A good chunk of the audience knows she shows up in TOS, which robs the whole idea of any tension it might have, and on top of that it feels plot armor-y to have one person survive and then not check for anyone else.

They could’ve just contrived to have Spock and Chapel be the best persons for the saucer deorbiting-- Spock as the precise vulcan/science officer to place the thrusters, Chapel as medbay’s lead in case they could bring anyone back from the Cayuga.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

I’m fine with Chapel being stuck there - I think the tension comes from the overall Spock/Chapel emotional arc, rather than wondering whether she will survive - but the sequence practically demands a second scan with the newfangled tricorders to verify that there are no other life signs on the ship.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

Isn’t the point though that the Gorn interference field was preventing any scans, comms or transport? The tricorder wouldn’t have worked there. And sending rescue teams would have been dangerous given Gorn belligerence, demarcation line or not.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

The anti-Gorn tricorders seemed to cut through the interference on the surface well enough.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

True, but that’s on the ground and short range. There’s specific dialogue to show that it’s interfering with signals between space and ground.

SPOCK: I detect a counter-frequency emanating from the planet. It appears to be negating all scans, communications, and transporter signals between here and there.

Spock can’t even scan for life signs on Cayuga. The best they have is passive sensors like spectrometry.

UNA: Still trying to scan for life signs?

SPOCK: I theorized I might be able to find a frequency gap through the interference field, but I have not managed to discover one yet.

UNA: Spock, I don’t think anyone’s alive over there.

SPOCK: Spectrometric analysis suggests there are still pockets of oxygen on board. It is possible someone could have survived.

That’s why they had to do a visual confirmation and discovered Cayuga’s sickbay had been blown away.

ValueSubtracted OP Mod ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

All that being true, I think the discovery of a single survivor should have scuttled the entire mission.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

I was just trying to answer the technological criticisms about why Spock didn’t search.

I see where the criticism is coming from, but I can also see there are all sorts of extenuating circumstances around it (not to mention lack of time) and to take the plot there for a search would kind of kill the story momentum.

It’s not invalid as a criticism, just saying that tech reasons are covered.

vewave ,
@vewave@kbin.social avatar

I see where the criticism is coming from, but I can also see there are all sorts of extenuating circumstances around it (not to mention lack of time) and to take the plot there for a search would kind of kill the story momentum.

This is a blunder on writer's/producer's/etc. They could have written a one-off line where Spock cold-bloodedly says "the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few." They could have sent rescue shuttles to search the wreckage since it was on the right side of the line early on in the episode. They could have chosen an entirely different solution (seems like flying a shuttle disguised as wreck worked well, toss another stuffed with torpedoes).

It's fine, they'll lampshade it next season.

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

“Shuttle stuffed with torpedoes” wouldn’t work because it’d be obvious it was weaponized - a single shuttle likely couldn’t take out that beacon on its on.

At least the saucer section of the Caygua was big enough to provide plausibility. Even if they found pieces of the rockets later they’d have no real proof - the rockets could be claimed to have been standard equipment or part of the RCS or impulse systems.

AuroraBorealis ,
@AuroraBorealis@pawb.social avatar

I’ll say it, the adult gorn, in those space suits look awesome, I’m a sucker for more animalistic races in star trek

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

The adult gorn was easily my favourite part of the episode!

There’s clearly a horror strain in the Gorn arc, with pretty strong echos/homages of Alien … and I am all here for it. With the scene of Batel warding off the young Gorn, I knew straight away she’d been impregnated because of the clear Alien reference.

freeman ,

I really liked the subtle hints. They arent just savage creatures. They have advanced technology. Communicate in ways humans cant understand at all. Use tech in ways most humans cant handle as well. Etc etc.

Trek would do good to have more species that arent humanoid. It makes for a much more interesting show.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

And now is the time to do it, where VFX and CGI are surely up to the task now.

freeman ,

Agree. One of my favorite species was the Xindi in enterprise. But even they fell victim to the trope of the universal translator. A species like the Gorn where normal linguistics just won’t work would be a nice touch (Ala the movie arrival or something)

PorthosAteMyCheese ,

Shaka, when the walls fell!

freeman ,

Kind of like that but with a modern format that can span multiple episodes.

r2vq ,
@r2vq@lemmy.ca avatar

We should try throwing styrofoam rocks at them

lemillionsocks ,
@lemillionsocks@beehaw.org avatar

We’re a long way from the silly rubber suit. They’re terrifying and the way they reproduce and use that tale screams xenomorph.

teft ,
@teft@startrek.website avatar

I’m a sucker for more animalistic races in star trek

Bring back the Xindi insectoids!!!

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@startrek.website avatar

They showed up in Prodigy as I recall

ieightpi ,

me too. we need more of the Gorn in other trek adaptions

nxdefiant ,

I’m impressed by Gorn engineering now. Making a space suit with what looked like dozens of vacuum- grade articulated tail joints can’t be easy.

Hypersapien , (edited )

The one thing I want to see is an Edosian in a live action Star Trek series.

steebo_jack , (edited )

Just watched this and my biggest gripe with Star Trek will always be that the federation ships are just way too weak. Yes they aren't supposed to be a battle force, but any moderately powerful enemy and they are toast...at least they had that special crate of better weapons, but why not just make that the norm? Finally, what good are the force fields if everything inside of the ship is getting wrecked with each hit? And send more friggin ships...

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

You do realize that without shields, they’d have been blown out of the sky in one shot rather than being able to survive in a firefight, right? It’s like saying what’s the point of a kevlar vest I’m going to get a broken rib from a body shot? If I can live, I’ll take that vest and broken rib, thanks.

Power is relative. There’ve been times we’ve seen weapons from less advanced species than the Federation bounce uselessly off shields or are seen as no threat. We’ve also seen Starfleet ships get carved up like a prize turkey. The Gorn are powerful, that’s just it. That doesn’t mean Starfleet aren’t heavy hitters - at this point it’s just that there’s stronger kid in the playground.

steebo_jack ,

Yes i realize that it gives them time to basically run away or end up like the other ship in lil pieces floating in space...basically have to rely on some type of trick to win...kevlar vest also doesnt let the bullet wreck your organs, did you not see the people getting tossed around inside the hsip?

Just brought me back to Picard S03 where the Titan, one of their more powerful ships btw, getting folded by some pirate ship with a portal weapon...sigh...

CCatMan ,

I though everyone and everything getting wrecked was a throwback to TOS.

The enterprise Dansd E are pretty strong

steebo_jack ,

I started with next generation and although there were some wrecking in that, i didnt remember it being that bad...its been a while htough...

khaosworks ,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

Exhibit A: The Battle of Wolf 359.

krnl386 ,
@krnl386@lemmy.ca avatar

The Defiant was a “tough little ship.” 😉

Richard ,
@Richard@startrek.website avatar

“Little?!”

jmp242 ,

For the number of ships, by TOS there are only 12 Constitution class ships, so there might not be more ships to send. We’re a year or so out from the Klingon war, and it doesn’t seem like the Federation is in a position to quickly replace ships. They already lost the Cayuga. Also the admiralty obviously isn’t interested in a Gorn war at all, and certainly not over this planet or the potential survivors.

I will say it’s been shown that Pike is just not a fighting captain. He’s not the person you want in a combat situation. It does make me wonder why he’s a Captain but idk. They really should send the Enterprise back on a deep space mission of exploration and have someone (who is not an evil mirror universe person) more like Lorca or Kirk running these border conflicts or something.

Hypersapien ,

Also, why didn’t their friggin Chief of Security know about the new weapons?

goldfishmotorcycle ,

This one was a bit disappointing to be honest. The darker/space-war episodes are rarely my favourite anyway but this one really suffered from impenetrable plot armour on most of the main cast. Gosh, will Spock and Chapel survive this time?! Of course they will; because it’s Mr. Spock and Nurse Chapel :-/.

And the federation apparently willing to just let it slide that an entire starship and crew were destroyed.

Chapel meeting Spock was a stretch. Proceeding to launch the rest of the ship into the planet after that was unconscionable.

Are the Gorn supposed to be dumb reptiles confused by flashing lights or technologically advanced space fairing antagonists? It’s too much of a stretch to leave unexplained at this point. Maybe part two will clear that up… in a couple of years :-/

And just the general bloodlust among the crew when prepping to go fight. These established affable and charming young scientists and nerds but suddenly it’s season final time and it’s all “the only good bug is a dead bug 😡”.

Some incredible best-of-show set pieces and special effects but a pretty dour end to a fun season of Trek. I’m not against more serious episodes at all, just this one has too many loose ends and inconsistencies.

riley0 ,
@riley0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Gosh, will Spock and Chapel survive this time?!

No, that’s how they get back to the canon. Sad. I’m as confused as you about the Gorn, though. I’m also wondering about the affable/bloodthirsty crew and trying to make sense of the title, “Hegemony.” Here’s one way might make sense: The demarcation line was a power play, kind of like NATO moving to Russia’s back yard or Russia reclaiming Crimea. Pike crosses it, another power play. Are we looking at a battle for unipolar power? Depicting the crew as both affable and bloodthirsty might be a way of holding up a mirror to ourselves. The Gorn are from hell. Demonizing people makes it easier to kill them. Interestingly, toward the end of the episode, Pike has a sentence about understanding the Gorn. Don’t groan. All Star-Trek series have included social commentary. (Remember Pelia’s comment, a couple of episodes ago, about holding onto valuable art in case this no-money experiment in socialism were to fail?)

Mandolingual ,

The landing party moving through the attacked town positioning themselves around crates and fighting the youngling was like a glimpse of an XCOM adaptation to a tee (with fewer OP melee weapons and grenades).

Navi ,

That’s a great observation, thinking back on it that’s absolutely what it was like!

StillPaisleyCat , (edited )
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Martin Quinn (Montgomery Scott) was reportedly born in Paisley, Scotland.

Dropping in to note that I’m feeling very smuggly self-satisfied that I decided not to completely abandon my alias when we migrated from the other place.

I guess that I must now become an unrepentant SNW Scotty stan. I look forward to seeing the character grow.

NuPNuA ,

That’s the first actually Scottish Scotty isn’t it?

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Yes. Born in Paisley (like David Tennant), and out of Scotland’s National Theatre Company, no less.

angstrom ,

Anyone else notice that the 2 people on the shuttle down who didn’t have plot armor (Ortegas and La’an) were wearing red shirts?

Disgustoid ,

There was at least one unnamed, previously unseen red shirt on the bridge as well. That was a hint there was going to be a body count. Of course, it could also mean that no one dies and the production staff are just playing into our expectations.

Basilisk ,

Ortegas was in the alternate future with Pike at the time of “A Quality of Mercy”, which is not necessarily “plot armour” but if we assume the timeline still hasn’t diverged — Pike not having had his accident yet — then it would seem reasonable she should get through to survive long enough to see the point of divergence and therefore survive long enough to be on the bridge with Pike when he meets the Romulans. However, that’s all very timey-wimey and subject to a lot of “maybes” and “what-ifs”.

transwarp ,

A Quality of Mercy also showed Una in prison, and Those Old Scientists implied she’s revered. Did sending that letter prevent Pike from recruiting her lawyer? Things are already not heading down the exact timeline we saw Ortegas alive in.

Navi ,

I agree with most people here. Great episode as long as you kinda ignore the fact that only Chapel survived in the saucer section and neither her nor Spock made any attempt to look for anyone else or even acknowledge it.

Rest of the episode I loved and I’m now just a bit sad we are going have to wait so long for the next series.

That being said, I absolutely support the strikes so I’m not complaining about the wait.

maxwisecracks ,
@maxwisecracks@lemmy.world avatar

They just had to say something like “Scans show nobody’s alive in the saucer section” and everything would be fine I guess.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Let’s wait until part two.

I think we may already have enough to figure out what happened but the technological explanation is yet to come. Much of the plot mechanics related to the Gorn so far rely on issues around what can be detected or transmitted and differences in solutions.

The writers’ challenge for the saucer subplot was that they wanted Spock to be surprised by both the adult Gorn in the environment suit and by Christine Chapel.

Their arrivals behind Spock on the exterior of the saucer were both unexpected, and were key elements of the suspense. His surprise and ours was necessary.

We would have expected however Spock to have done some kind of local tricorder scan of the wreckage when he arrived. It’s possible that a tricorder scan was done, was negative, but we didn’t hear any report because there were no vocal coms back to the Enterprise. Uhura gave a play by play based on telemetry, we didn’t hear Spock report directly.

In that case, we’re owed an explanation about why the new tricorder technology failed. As long as we get it in the second part, I’d be fine.

Given the established interference field technology of the Gorn, I would be perfectly comfortable if the follow up episode acknowledged that the Gorn environmental suits put out some kind of localized disruptive stealth.

The new Starfleet tricorder technology is designed for unsuited Gorn. It’s designed to solve the problem of Gorn biology but not Gorn technology.

Gorn technology is different, they are driven by different species biological imperatives (as in the coronal flares), and that’s an extra hurdle for Starfleet.

We have already seen however that Scott designed a system to both spoof human life signs to Starfleet tricorders and Gorn as well as hide human life signs for hundreds of people. To do this, he used some of the specialized technology from the scientific research array that was studying the nearby sun.

Spock would naturally follow up on his surprise encounter on the saucer. Scott would be the natural collaborator to figure out how it was that the Gorn came up behind him undetected by his tricorder.

So then, what about Chapel in the saucer? If she was the sole human life form, and he completed the scan, why didn’t his technology detect her?

A couple of possibilities exist.

– Chapel’s suit has some local stealth technology. She got into her suit as soon as she saw Spock pass by. Given it was in her quarters it’s a personal suit not a generic one, and she’s established as being a war veteran who had to fight despite being medical corps, and/or

– the distortion field or stealth technology put out by the Gorn’s environmental suit was large enough to hide her as well.

Richard ,
@Richard@startrek.website avatar

I think it’s far more plausible that Spock simply didn’t scan for life signs, as his mission was to install the rockets and had nothing to do with rescuing any survivors in the first place, he stumbled upon Chapel by accident. It’s also logical to assume that there would not be any other survivors left in the same space as Chapel as from Spock’s perspective, she would have brought such along or at least have informed him of them. Therefore, we can conclude that there wasn’t any misconduct from either of the two.

Hogger85b ,

The whole point was scans were down UNTIL they slammed saucer into planet. They couldn't detect chapel due to the beam the saucer was used to destroy

praxi ,

Adored seeing Scotty show up. I am worried about Batel being infected, as I love seeing a strong woman Star Trek captain and love her relationship with Pike. Lots of hints that the Gorn are not just “monsters”. They are the Borg of pre-TOS era, as someone mentioned.

I hate cliffhangers though. I agree, how long before we see the next episode, especially with the strike.

jaelisp ,
@jaelisp@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

While a strong woman, they’ve done shockingly little to tell us anything about her until the last episode when we find out she likes tourism. But we know precious little of her personality and most of the relationship has been seen from Chris’ side. I think she’s been written to be disposable. But I’d love it if they save her and actually develop her more.

praxi ,

We do know she is smart (ad astra episode where she is a lawyer), loyal (she tried to help Una) and doesn’t let Chris lie to her.

teft ,
@teft@startrek.website avatar

I hope she lives because I like her as a captain. She seems very laid back and I feel like Starfleet being huge and all there would be a few captains that are pretty chill.

reddig33 ,

I keep hoping Sam Kirk or someone else (even a female character) gets some space lovin’ going on. Everyone on TOS was much more swinging space 60s, and Jim Kirk was quite the lothario, but everyone on this show is much more traditional romantic.

startrek ,

@praxi maybe they keep Batel in the buffer of the medical transporter like M'Benga did with his daughter in season one.

praxi ,

I hope they can find a cure besides the transporter buffer, because I am worried the hundreds of people beamed onto the Gorn ship may also have been infected.

startrekexplained ,

Canon issues aside, I do dig the new Gorn and the adult ones look badass. I liked the cliffhanger too

Magnetar ,

I love how they tock one of the most laughable elements of TOS and made the Gorn into a terrifying and interesting enemy. I genuinely want to know about Gorn society.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

This exactly. Using something closer to the xenomorphs of Alien, introduces a truly frightening species that is sufficiently different that their kind of intelligence and motivations are believably difficult for Federation humanoids to understand.

I know there are other older fans struggling with this, but I think it’s saving the Gorn and Arena from absurdity.

No matter how compelling the story, TOS Arena’s ridiculous rubber suit Gorn has become one of the most recognized images from the franchise in popular culture.

Even as a child watching the episode in its first run it seemed more like silly monster movie stuff. It didn’t have the quality of truly scary monsters of that era such as the Creature of the Black Lagoon. It wasn’t in any way reaching Roddenberry’s target high value sci-fi standard of Forbidden Planet or even The Cage.

More, with so many later stories of Kirk and other captains welcoming the strange and different, coming to terms with very alien species, we need to be shown why Kirk was so hostile to the Gorn by the time of TOS.

While they could have gone for some other kind of reptilian, I like SNW’s choice to go with a the biology of parasitic R-breeder. Roddenberry’s original concept for the Ferengi was closer to the parasitic bat people of Andromeda than what TNG and DS9 gave us. The updated Gorn can be viewed as incorporating that idea and making them as terrifying.

Basilisk ,

I like the Gorn being legitimately scary, but to me it kind of retroactively highlights how silly “Arena” was. You can’t really compare modern TV with the episodes from the 60s, but stick one of these Gorn on the planet with Kirk and he would have been proper fucked. I can accept it easily enough and take it with a grain of salt that, if we assume they were going to re-shoot the episode today with Paul Wesley and modern cinema techniques that the fight scenes wouldn’t be these silly ponderous things and the episode would probably largely not have Kirk confront the Gorn at all, mostly running away until the big climax with the “cannon”. However, it is kind of an unforced error, where they could have simply introduced the aliens as a totally new species without really losing anything while also not highlighting how silly the rubber suit Gorn was.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

No highlighting is necessary. No need to be a fan to instantly associate the rubber suit Gorn of Arena with the franchise.

The meme of Kirk in a ripped tunic fighting the rubber-suited Gorn with the Vasquez Rocks behind is one of the most recognizable images in pop culture.

Goldsman and Myers have my respect for their attempt to salvage it.

Tired8281 , (edited )

Kirk’s Gorn was the captain. Maybe he was old and feeble? Not suited for a fight, still pretty strong but no longer fast and agile. The Metrons chose the captains, not the best fighters.

angstrom ,

It’s also been suggested in the beta canon that the Gorn are made up of multiple reptile variants. The ones in SNW seem to be raptor based. It’s possible the less agile more tank like variants might show up later.

Osa-Eris-Xero512 ,

I love this actually. Kirk, probably top 5% percent against the Gorn captain who happened to be some ancient, arthritic, half blind, one foot in the grave, and still beat his ass all over the paramount back lot.

Sertou ,

My head canon is that there’s another stage to the Gorn lifecycle that we haven’t yet seen on SNW. It might be that with full maturity, the Gorn gain significant intelligence and brute strength relative to earlier stages, but lose speed and agility.

GaiusGornicusCaesar , (edited )
@GaiusGornicusCaesar@startrek.website avatar

A cliffhanger… I was hoping they wouldn’t introduce those. I expect Sam and M’Benga will be the only one who makes it out alive… expecting to see Sulu and Chekov introduced soon.

Edit: Also the “They’ve been beamed up… by the gorn” and Pike standing there has the potential to be one of the most horrifying cliffhangers in Star Trek.

2nd Edit: Not Chekov…

LibraryLass ,

Wouldn’t prime!Chekov be like 12 around this time frame?

GaiusGornicusCaesar ,
@GaiusGornicusCaesar@startrek.website avatar

Nevermind, forgot that Chekov wasn’t introduced until Season 2… but Sulu is a possibility.

angstrom ,

Chekov was on the Enterprise during s1. Continuity with TWOK requires it. Plus some of the star dates for s2 episodes that starred Chekov where set before the star date for Space Seed.

But yes at this point we are ~6 years before TOS so Chekov would be in his late teens.

GaiusGornicusCaesar ,
@GaiusGornicusCaesar@startrek.website avatar

That’s true, TWOK requires him being on Enterprise for Season 1, or at least Space Seed. I wouldn’t hold stardates too closely since they basically pulled them out of a hat and used whatever was pulled. But he would be in his late teens.

UESPA_Sputnik ,
@UESPA_Sputnik@feddit.de avatar

Plus some of the star dates for s2 episodes that starred Chekov where set before the star date for Space Seed.

Stardates in TOS (and SNW) are just random numbers. You can’t extrapolate anything from them.

VindictiveJudge ,

And now I wonder if they were poking at the random numbers when Boimler couldn’t figure out what the stardate would be and just said ‘the past’.

FrostyCaveman ,

Definitely

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Also not Sulu if Sam Kirk is hanging around. Sulu was some kind of xenobiologist (xenobotanist?) in the opening episodes of TOS. The move to alpha shift helmsman came later.

GaiusGornicusCaesar ,
@GaiusGornicusCaesar@startrek.website avatar

Need to rewatch TOS then, memory’s got a bit rusty. Thanks!

Faceman2K23 ,
@Faceman2K23@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Scotty!

Playing it kinda like Simon pegg, Which is honestly great. Looking forward to seeing more tos characters introduced next season.

maegul , (edited )
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Looking forward to seeing more tos characters introduced next season.

I am the opposite. I was hoping SNW would be its own TOS era but modernised show without being beholden to TOS apart from whatever canon we have for pike and Spock.

TBH, this transition into TOS prequel has tainted the show for me. I’ll prob never love it. We got more Scotty in this episode than we did Ortegas, La’an or Number One (or their abouts). I know about Scotty. He’s been rebooted already in the past decade or so. How about more SNW characters?! How about new characters?!

I’m pretty comfortable on this hill now.

passinglurker ,

One can hope the surviving snw crew get their own ship and show after pike gets the chair. Last thing I want is for them to follow the 1701 for so long that they start refilming TOS

angstrom ,

I’ve long accepted that SNW is basically an ensemble anthology show and TOS crew and others will rotate in and out as needed. The only fixed character is the Enterprise.

Faceman2K23 ,
@Faceman2K23@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

To me it was a TOS prequel from the start, I was expecting characters from the original to be introduced at some point, even if they end up being one or two episode cameos until closer to the end of the series where it has to at some point hand over to kirks enterprise with his crew. They are of course giving Kirk some more time than that as his character needs to be built into the kirk that will take command in a few in universe years, Spock is still young and learning to be fully Vulcan, Uhura is young and still building confidence etc etc etc.

I suspect we will get similar 2 or 3 episode arcs for the other as-yet unseen TOS crew in the next couple of seasons, I don’t know how many seasons they are planning on, but I suspect 5 or 6 considering it is the flagship show in the franchise and as a whole is doing increasingly well.

maegul , (edited )
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not too dissimilar from you, but expected cameos. Even Kirk in the S1 finale worked for me, because it was mostly about Pike but also a bit meta about the differences between him and Kirk. Continuity is great after all.

My point is that there’s a line beyond which the show leans prequel, and S2 has crossed that line IMO.

Which is fine, if that’s what people want, which I suspect is the case. I also suspect a TOS reboot would go down well and the execs are fully aware of this. But, is this really good for Trek or even good Trek? When was the last time we had new trek that wasn’t a prequel or driven by nostalgia? Lower Decks? I’m not a Discovery fan, but it surely tried, as did Picard S1 I’d say. Otherwise you might have to go all the way back to DS9. Thing is we’re as far from DS9 now as it was from TOS. SNW was something fresh, a true example of Trek being back on track by retaining the core but doing something new. The more it leans prequel, for me, the more I begin to feel all of nu-Trek is a missed opportunity and not worthy of celebration, which honestly saddens me (apart from lower decks, now my definitely fav new Trek!)

angstrom ,

I would have it run until Kirk takes over as captain. Then jump forward to just after The Motion Picture.

This not only gives them about a decade of time before TWOK that’s barely been touched by the screen canon, they can do a design revamp to freshen the series up using TMP as a starting point, and they handle the fact that with a series per year the actors are going to quickly age ahead of their characters.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I very much wanted SNW to be its own show for at least a few seasons.

It’s not the Pike’s Enterprise I fan-campaigned for based on The Cage or Discovery season two.

I’m enjoying it for what it is even so, and accepting that the powers that be at Paramount wanted ‘familiar faces’ in their new Star Trek offerings, which means legacy characters. It’s the best of the new live action Trek whatever. All to say that I appreciate your frustration, I’ve decided to make peace with it myself.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Cheers! I had hoped we’d get a main cast focused finale and was triggered to have Scotty turn up so prominently. So that’s 4(?) out of 10 episodes in S2 with a major TOS appearance? (5 out of the last 11 counting the finale of S1) It was a “maybe they won’t cross the line for me … oh ok they’ve crossed the line” moment.

Interestingly, in the ready room for this episode, there’s Kurtzman talking about bringing in Scotty, and he speaks about bringing in the TOS characters as something they were always going to do over time. I’d be curious to know how publicly that was stated because I missed it and if it were known from the top I certainly wouldn’t have been so excited for the show. Especially given, as I remember anyway, back at the end of Discovery S1 when Pike and the enterprise first showed up, there was some blow back that Discovery was going to devolve so quickly into TOS prequel nostalgia and not remain its own thing (that Discovery was a TOS prequel might not have sat well with many Trek fans at the time either though I don’t recall). The show assured us that it’ll still stay Discovery and that the enterprise was just a cameo of sorts, and then we got Pike, who everyone loved and Discovery, to its credit, remained its own thing even with Spock turning up (and had maybe its best or at least most interesting or bold season??).

Unless everyone but me knew SNW was going to be a TOS prequel, it feels like the needle has moved since then into a more ready acceptance of prequel/reboot material … which, if true, is not great TBH.

As for making peace with it … yea, I’ll still watch SNW and probably enjoy a lot of it. What’s been lost for me, if the prequel feeling continues, is that I’ll never “love” SNW, and it will ultimately be “ok” for me, and new-Trek’s legacy will, for me, have lost its shining light and fall back to mediocrity, unfortunately.

If someone came to me and said they don’t watch Trek anymore because it’s gotten stale since the 90s (which has happened), now, I would say fair enough, but at the beginning of S2 I would have said (and did say) “have you watched SNW?”

Looking forward to Lower Decks though!

Cheers for the sympathies!!! (sorry for the rant!)

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Kurtzman’s making shows for a streamer that says its strategy since the merger has become is “franchises, familiar faces and fandoms.”

I do suspect the needle has moved towards more legacy characters. It seems only the shows targeted at a younger audience get mainly new crews. Starfleet Academy and the 32nd century seem our best hope of seeing new characters and settings.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

a streamer that says its strategy since the merger has become is “franchises, familiar faces and fandoms.”

Huh … didn’t know that was more or less explicit and public. Thanks!

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Right out of the mouth of their head of streaming scheduling early in 2022.

Harrison Ford, Helen Mirren, Sylvester Stallone in the Sheridan shows cover off familiar faces too.

felixxx999 ,

I like that Pike avoids conflict whenever he can. And him not immediately knowing what to do at the end is so him. I’m confident that none of the cast will be killed off. Just unnamed red shirts.

Basilisk ,

They seem to be bookending the season with flashbacks to Pike’s expedition to Rigel VII. His decision to withdraw there cost people their lives and led to Zak corrupting the local culture. Now he’s back under fire, under seemingly unwinnable odds, and forced to make the call to leave people behind again.

Acid ,
@Acid@startrek.website avatar

On the whole a solid episode and the Scott appearance was very surprising and well done.

However why the hell is Christine the only survivor on the cayuga, it makes no sense at all.

Also the fucking cliffhanger is ridiculous

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