I'll keep my ICE and ride a bike. I'll still do less environmental damage than you because I am human powered for all but the trips to the mountains, and then I don't have to worry about being stranded without a plug.
And I have yet to hear a convincing argument that taking my perfectly working vehicle off the road to buy another manufactured product is still more environmentally friendly than... not buying anything at all.
I don't give a fuck about initial torque. I'm going to be laughing in my wheetabix when there's not a single EV older than a decade on their original batteries.
Pretty easy to make a comparison to the average American. It's like BMI -- it's bigger than the individual and not a metric useful for individual comparison.
Drivers reported making an average of 2.44 driving trips, spending 60.2 minutes behind the wheel, and driving 30.1 miles each day in 2022. Projecting these results to all drivers nationwide, 255 million drivers made a total of 227 billion driving trips, spent 93 billion hours driving, and drove 2.8 trillion miles in 2022, all of which represented small but not statistically significant decreases relative to 2021.
It's totally relevant. You said "I’ll still do less environmental damage than you" and your reasoning for that is based on what the average American does.
So unless you believe that you're only talking to average Americans, you are using a meaning of the word "you" that literally no one else in the world uses.
So you sure claim you do. And the evidence you gave was, again, you were talking about the average American. So, again, how do you know that everyone here- that anyone here- is what you describe as an average American?
And I have yet to hear a convincing argument that taking my perfectly working vehicle off the road to buy another manufactured product is still more environmentally friendly than... not buying anything at all.
That’s because nobody is making that argument. The only statement I’ve ever heard from environmentalists/scientists is that the most beneficial thing to do is keep your old ICE car and maintain it well.
I certainly know of some "get rid of your car and bike everywhere" environmentalists, but most of them realize that isn't actually an option in, for example, rural Montana in February.
Yeah, at least they’re sticking to their ideals and their suggestion would help the environment. But as you pointed out, it just won’t/can’t happen in much of the US.
In fact, I just recently went on a road trip from Pennsylvania to Tennessee that took me through parts of West Virginia, Ohio, and Kentucky. I can’t think of any places I saw where public transportation would be feasible. Maybe long-distance trains to augment air travel as an option, but nothing last-mile.
I saw more signs about reasons god might send me to hell, or how Trump is awesome, than any form of public transit. Even buses. Because I saw zero of any of it.
Not sure if this was a thing anywhere else but in some UK cities like London there were "scrappage schemes" that incentivised scrapping your car to replace it with something more efficient, which I always thought was missing the point
Approximately nobody is saying you should sell your 2020 compensator for scrap, in fact the general consensus is that the best thing you can do is keep your current ride in good repair as long as you can.
You don't have to invent boogeyman just because you have a weird parasocial relationship with big oil.
Because the first model year for the Nissan Leaf was 2011, not 2010.
Most cars are physically manufactured a year or so before the model year. If you want to search for Leafs (Leaves?) manufactured in 2010, look for model year 2011.
Gas engines have decent range. Gas engines are cheaper (as the electric engine prices are artificially inflated, just look at Chinese prices), with gas engines you can listen to the sound of the engine to diagnose problems before they occur, batteries don't degrade (you still have car batteries, but when they degrade, you can still drive a car for as long as with the new battery. You can refuel it in a couple of seconds. Anyone can make one sided arguments. There isn't a best thing for everything.
The reason why you may be able to diagnose an ICE by sound is because they're complex. That's not a positive. An electric motor has just a few moving parts. If it goes bad you don't really need to work to figure it out and fix it.
The rest of the arguments can be made, but as you imply they're disingenuous. The sound one is just not a benefit at all.
I was apprehensive about EVs but the first time I rode in one I immediately fell in love with it. I get carsick easily, and the super-smooth ride without the chug-chug-chug of an internal combustion engine made the experience surprisingly much more pleasant for me. I do not use a car, but if I had to buy one, I don't think I could ever stomach an ICE again knowing that this alternative is available.
I knew that motion sickness is triggered by frequent starts and stops and frequent turns, but even I was not aware of how big a contribution the engine vibration makes until I got to experience a ride without it.
At a stretch, I guess you could say that a battery that's going bad doesn't make a sound.
But yes, electric motors are way more reliable than internal combustion engines and objectively superior. You would never use an ICE over an EE for any application where you have a reliable supply of electricity.
Either they are priced higher or they aren't. They are priced higher and as such I won't be buying one anytime soon. Not until they are a decade old on their original batteries.
Yeah, I understand perfectly that you're hilariously wrong. My car is paid off. It's just maintenance at this point. How is that going to be more expensive than buying an EV?
Reddit moment. You're right, but you let this guy frustrate you into responding to the same nonsense multiple times in a row, and some people thought you were being mean.
I think you are having trouble understanding the English language. Most people have heard of a thing called context.
“A programmer is going to the store and his wife tells him to buy a gallon of milk, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen. So the programmer goes shopping, does as she says, and returns home to show his wife what he bought. But she gets angry and asks, ‘Why’d you buy 13 gallons of milk?’ The programmer replies, ‘There were eggs!’”
Now as we are describing car types one with a gas and one with an electric engine, and comparing their prices, maybe put the LLM context tokens slightly higher before responding.
Range anxiety is largely a perception thing. The vast majority of car journeys are well within the range of an EV, you just need to get in the habit of plugging in like you would your phone. For journey's long enough for it to be more than a single charge you really should be stopping for more than a few seconds anyway as you need recharging.
you just need to get in the habit of plugging in like you would your phone
Yeah but not everyone lives in suburbia with ample plug-in options available to them. Where I live the street-side charging spots are usually occupied, and the parking spot that I rent has no charging.
For journey’s long enough for it to be more than a single charge you really should be stopping for more than a few seconds anyway as you need recharging.
True to some extent, I have to check my travel logs but I do feel like stopping for an hour every 300km or so is longer and much more often than I would normally stop on long road trips. My (diesel) car has a range of well over 1000km so often I stop for only 15 minutes for a coffee and to stretch my legs, or just for a restroom stop and a driver swap. We usually plan just one big stop (1h) for dinner. Most destinations I've been to I could reach without refueling at all.
There's also the issue of contention for charging spots. On gas stations near the big highways towards popular destinations you often already have to queue to get gas. This will become worse when EVs become common place and people occupy a charging spot for an hour instead of a fuel pump for 30 seconds to top up.
Little anecdote: every year around the holiday season, there are several company wide e-mails from EV driving co-workers requesting to swap cars (with a co-worker who has a CE car) to go on holiday. So I think the practical experience may not be as rosy as you paint it.
Okay, but it is still jumping through hoops which doesn't exist with gas cars. What if I have 3 people driving, like in a road trip? You can't continuously drive after refueling anymore. It isn't just a perception thing, it absolutely requires planning and stops you wouldn't take otherwise.
jumping through hoops which doesn't exist with gas cars.
You have to physically drive to a different location to get petrol. That's a hoop. Just because you're used to it doesn't mean it's not there.
What if I have 3 people driving, like in a road trip? You can't continuously drive after refueling anymore. It isn't just a perception thing, it absolutely requires planning and stops you wouldn't take otherwise.
It is a perception. The vast majority of trips this won't be an issue. In the once in a bluemoon that you'll be driving more than the range of the car, yes, it could be. This is where it's perception. People seem to think that they'll run commuting to work or half the journeys they take will be affected. Whereas it's really really rare.
So what you are saying is "I don't care about the points you raised" essentially. I said specifically "hoops that don't exist with gas cars" not "gas cars don't have hoops to jump through". Electric cars have issues with trips longer than their range, which you then need to charge for a very long time compared to just refueling the gas car.
Sorry about the hoops issues, I clearly slightly misread
However, two can play at being pedantic. I addressed your point about range anxiety before you even made it. As I said originally it is largely perception. I even went as far as to agree with you that in the 0.000001% of journeys you identified it would be an issue.
It's not going to work out. Battery connections need to be standardized across manufacturers, which is a lot more complicated than standardizing a plug. The garages to do swaps are a lot more complicated than chargers. It forces certain decisions on battery placement, which cuts out things like integrating the battery into the frame to save weight.
Charger deployment has raced ahead. We need a lot more of them to support the EVs we already have, and need even more for the EVs that are going to be purchased over the next decade. Switching over to swapping would send the EV market into whiplash that just isn't necessary.
I'm not understanding your "it can't be standardized if it's too complicated" argument. That hasn't seemed to have been a big issue for, for example, computer motherboards.
Motherboard standardization is not even close to comparable.
You have to standardize the dimensions and unlatching mechanism of a huge battery out from under the car and latching a new one in. It has to support a battery that weighs around 2 tons. This isn't just a matter of scaling up a AA battery connector. And then you have to convince all, or at least most, of the manufacturers to do that in order for network effects to help the process. Since we've had to do a lot before manufactures settled on a plug design, we're not likely to do the same for batteries.
A counterpoint to that is things like batteries, ram, motherboards, etc. in laptops (and pretty much every other device that uses rechargeable batteries). The fact is that for better designs the batteries are probably not going to be easily standardized in electric cars (also kills innovation).
PC motherboards aren't trying to use the least amount of space possible, because desktops can be large. The same isn't true with cars, the space matters.
You jump through all sorts of hoops with gas cars. We've all made it part of the habits of our lives and don't think about them, but they're absolutely there.
I'd honestly love to just plug in every night instead of having to spend time getting gas every week. Sure it's only a few minutes, but that's probably a few hours of my life every year. Getting an electric vehicle and renting cars for road trips would honestly make much more sense for me.
Unfortunately, it looks like it'd be financially irresponsible for me to buy an electric car right now while I still have a perfectly functional ICE car.
Range anxiety is not just about a single trip. You are assuming that not only will we all be able to just charge whenever and wherever we park our cars, but that we'll never fail to do so. You also assume that only one person will be driving the car.
If I forget to plug in my phone it's not a big deal. I can just plug it in on the way to work or bring a battery pack. And it is not uncommon for my kid to bring our car home on empty. And then of course there are broken charges and unreliable utilities. I can't even count on a reliable internet connection wherever I go and that can be supplied wirelessly.
I have lived far enough out in the country before that I've had to deal with range anxiety in ICE vehicles. The threat of running out of gas before you can make it to a gas station is a very real and stressful issue. I can only imagine how much worse it is going to be when it takes more than just a gas can and a few minutes to get you going when you screw up.
If you live in the Balkans, you can hardly charge your electric car anywhere and if you go on holidays, It takes way longer, since you have to recharge multiple times and it takes a couple of hours.
Ok, what's your point? Did I say it's always and in every single niche scenario people are going to come up with a perception issue? Or did I in fact say it's largely (as in most of the time and in most cases) a perception issue?
It had just started to feel like people were trying to say that I thought range anxiety was absolutely never legitimate.
In reality most people will do maybe one journey a year where it could possibly be. For them they'll have saved so much from reduced maintenance and running costs of an EV that they could hire an ICE vehicle for that one trip and still have saved themselves money.
Of course if you're way off the top end of the bell curve with your usage an EV may not yet be the best option for you.
Yes, I was also a little extreme about range anxiety. There still are EVs, that have decently long range. The reliability is what we need with all technology. I'm actually interested what could actually break in them other than battery or storage chips.
the vast majority of the cost of an electric car is in the battery, every phone I've had really degrades in battery after a couple years, and my dad still drives an ICE car about the same age as me
Your argument is with electric cars vs ice cars. xkcd likely specifically was talking about engines just so all the range arguments don't work. It's just engine vs engine and there electric is far superior.
That's like saying a sword is a better weapon than a gun because the sword can bei used for cutting, hitting und thrusting and also as a tool while the gun can only hit and shoot while needing additional components to function that quickly run out while being more complex to build.
You cant just ignore the context to make your argument. He's clearly talking about cars here.
Well for the lawn mowers, I think it doesn't matter that much what specs you choose. You don't need to be comfortable using it if you don't mow the lawn every day, but it's still better if you choose a better, longer lasting product.
Specs absolutely matter. Incline of your lawn, outdoor outlet location, type of grass you have growing. I'd never recommend a plug in electric lawn mower to someone who needs to mow six acres of hills.
That said, electric mowers by and large are better for most consumers.
Sound depends on whether you value low noise. And not sure about tactile feeling, but ngl, the feeling of drivint an ICE car is awful after switching to EVs. The instant acceleration and responsiveness is just great.
As a US citizen I am painfully aware that I could dip down to mexico and buy a competent EV at 35~40k USD value in MXN. Alternatives in the states, even produced here, are upwards of 50k for the poverty model. Maybe the engine itself is cheaper, but the vehicles absolutely are not (unless you are being denied options by your government as part of an ongoing slap fight).
Electric vehicles a bad product for 95% of people right now. When is America just going to invest in public transportation.
Pouring billions of dollars widening highway widening projects and giving automotive companies a tax break to charge a premium on electric cars has always been idiotic.
Edit: I was never criticizing electric car owners nor do I care if it works for the specific use case of a small group of individuals. I'm glad some people are adopting a new technology for the sake of helping the environment(I don't care about individuals doing it for clout).
Most people can't even reasonably afford new cars and have an outlet to park next to at the end of the day so you're doing good so long as you plan to keep the car for at least 20,000 miles give or take to offset the carbon emissions of manufacturing the battery. Food and shelter is just more important.
Hybrids are a good stop gap until they dramatically improve battery technology and standardize parts. Plus there are plenty of used hybrids around and are just getting cheaper as more get released onto the market. Hybrids often get released at lower prices due to the cost of manufacturing battery packs.
The ability to reliably get to work and the super market shouldn't be restricted to the ones able to afford and maintain transportation but a basic right of all citizens.
What do you mean by bad for 95% of people? 95% of people drive less than 60 miles in a day. Which is something that can easily be recovered overnight with a standard 15 amp outlet not even a special dedicated charger they would have been fine with early electric vehicles much less what we have today
Pretty sure they're the type to think that if you live within a mile of someone else, any car is bad and every non-walking movement you make should be with public transit. Basically the fuckcars type.
(For the record, I get the frustration on the reliance of cars in everyday life. But the last mile problem is real and getting a practical transit option outside of moderately-sized cities is pretty much impossible)
How many of you guys live in a house you own and can install a fast charger or have reserved parking with even an outlet. How many charging stations are available on your routs. How many of those chargers don't get vandalized and the copper cables cut off with bolt cutters. How many of you guys can afford a typical EV and the cost of charging at a fast charger on your salary.
Most importantly how does it solve the issue of long distance travel, driving in cold weather with reduced range, and towing. If anyone read my post I said EVs are not ready for 95% of people yet.
Ok, so you are kinda dumb if you believe only 5% of people can pass through your scrutiny.
I charge at home. I'm fortunate enough to be a homeowner, but not top-5% fortunate. GM paid for my charger install when I bought the car, but if they hadn't it would've been about $1500 for a more complicated installation than average (circuit breaker panel is on the other side of the house). Even if I were stuck on a regular outlet, 10 hours of charging per day would get me about 35 miles nightly, or almost 13,000 miles per year. Which is about average. All that means I don't need to care about local charging, and neither do others in a similar situation to me (which, again, is not 5% of people)
The car itself (Chevy Bolt EUV) was about $35K new with bells and whistles included. That has since gone down significantly, especially on a used car. Charging cost is a laughable concern - when I charge at home, it's like paying $1/gallon for gas so I'm coming out ahead there. Happy to show you the math there. Fast charging on a road trip is a lot more expensive, but I rarely use it. I don't miss the forest for the trees, especially when it brings me roughly to gas prices anyway.
Long distance, I normally stop for food, stretching, gas, and bio breaks. It's not hard to plan so you do all those things while charging. My car can get about 150 miles of range in under an hour, and I can start full and arrive empty (charging overnight). My car is also arguably the second-worst at this, others are far better.
Cold weather is no problem when I charge at home daily. Maybe I need to spend a little more charging on a long trip in winter, but not impossibly so.
If you think 95% of people tow, that's laughable. I do, usually a rented U-Haul around town. I'll admit I have an ICE to complement my EV for long-haul towing and a few other things, but that's not because my other car is electric. It's because it's small. So many families get by just fine on Subarus and Honda Civics, because they have no need to tow or anything like that. An EV would most likely be just fine for them too.
You don't have to justify your purchase to me, just enjoy it. I never criticized anyone for owning a car.
I'm glad you're having a good experience with your car, I just find there's a lot of compromise and issues that would make it difficult or near impossible for most people to own one.
Something like plugin hybrids and regular hybrids would just be a better fit for 95% of people and public transportation would solve a lot more problems in the long run. It would definitely solve the ballooning cost of infrastructure maintenance and ever growing traffic as well as being better for small businesses.
I wasn't trying to be modest or justify my purchase, I was trying to point out that I'm a pretty normal person who wouldn't be the lucky 1 in 20 for whom an EV would make sense.
Maybe I have to charge a little more on a big road trip once or twice a year and that trip will take an hour or so longer (keeping in mind I stop for other things anyway). Over that year I've saved time in other ways by not going to the gas station or getting my oil changed (or doing it myself). Saved money that way too. Oh, and the car is a battery and a motor. There's no series of accessories given by a belt moving at 2500 RPM. There's no catalytic converter to worry about. All that's to say, less maintenance over time. No need to check emissions. The car is quiet and an absolute pleasure to drive.
I'd say having an EV works damn fine for me. The question is, why am I not part of the 95%?
Because you thought the benefits out way the downsides. The idea of a bad product is subjective and in my opinion the alternatives are just better for the vast majority of people for now.
It's will take standardization of parts and the ability for owners and mechanics to work on it, ability for third parties to produce parts, a track record that proves their claimed reliability and longevity, a more competitive market, better battery tech, more infrastructure for charging, more reliable charging and better range during the winter, etc. all that before it's suitable for more individuals in my opinion.
I still hear plenty of stories involving people trading their EVs in for a gas powerd car either before or after their lease runs up. And I've seen actual people in my life considering an EV and getting a hybrid because of this or that. There are just so many reasons it's impractical for people. It doesn't make them bad and your not wrong for owning one. They just fit your use case better than most.
And I've seen plenty of people go from a Chevy Volt (hybrid) to a Bolt (full electric). But that's not the point. None of what you said was. I told you my car has worked great for me and why, and asked why I'm not part of the 95% of people you mentioned when my life is generally pretty average. You failed to answer that pretty basic question.
I don't know why you want me to explain you and your situation. I really don't see why it would be the same as everyone elses. I'm pulling from stories, other people's experiences, studies, real world cases, the research I did when I was interested, what mechanics are saying, and so on.
Maybe it's different where you live but I come from the Midwest and many of the places I've been, what family members, neighbors, and friends think think are the same story. I really was hoping for actual substance in this conversation but seeing as it's becoming cyclical I'm going to move onto more important things and I hope you do too.
I did have one case where someone enjoyed their Tesla, he was a retired firefighter that barely drove and he liked the way it rode. He didn't know much about it though when I talked to him.
There's a ton of pretty baseless, biased, and flat out wrong anti-EV stuff out there. Don't trust everything you read on the Internet.
95% of people is a huge number. I'm harping on it because it's such a bold claim that an EV wouldn't work for such a huge number, so I'm trying to see how you can back it up.
And for the record, I live in Colorado and am from Minnesota. So I'm reasonably familiar with winter.
It pretty much boils down to living in a small town where there are no chargers and if you're renting especially there is typically no place to plug in. Also issues with not being able to make road trips that don't have chargers along the way, reduced range in cold weather, and if you need to tow it's pretty pointless in an EV.
I never said we couldn't but it's pretty impractical if it's hard to find a charger. A lot of people don't live in houses and at least where I live there is one EV charger in my town. That's one charger not a station, and the town community center shut it down because upkeep was too expensive.
I agree public transport is the better option, but electric cars are a good option for the vast majority of people as long as we're going to need cars.
I agree but if you can't park near an outlet and you have no charging stations in your town it's pretty impractical to own one. Everywhere I've lived so far that's the case for a lot of individuals. There's also issues with long trips, reduced range in cold weather, and towing being pretty much pointless in an EV.
I mean I live in America, my perspective will be American. I'd argue Americans are typically really into cars and the freedom of the open road. I mean we pretty much made electric cars popular so I don't get your point.
I don't know the state of Estonia but I do pay attention to the rest of the world. Most European countries that embrace and properly build out public transportation have happier citizens, livelier public spaces, and healthier business overall.
We can be civil, no need to be combative for no reason. If you like electric cars that's fine, I like electric cars too but we don't all live in California.
Most people live in apartments here and the only charger available was closed down because maintenance and upkeep was too much for the community center that installed it.
You live in the city? I'm just curious, I've noticed cities typically move much faster than small towns if at all. I think it's really cool you have that kind of luxury to be honest.
I live in a small town that tries to be modern but it often results in something like free wifi city wide that doesn't really work or a walking path that goes from an Indian park to the opposite side of town for some reason. The one charging station was one of those things that didn't work out but it was neat that they tried.
They are trying to lay optical fiber and trying to convince people to sign up, its super expensive compared to privately owned ISP's but better than coax I guess.
Yeah, I live in a city. In London to be more specific. But on street charging options are growing fast all over the country, you can read more here and you can find a map with all the spots there as well https://www.zap-map.com/ev-guides/on-street-charging
The idea behind on street charging is that infrastructure is already there (lamp posts, etc), adding charging points is relatively cheap and that will generate additional income for the local councils. So it's a win-win for everyone.
That's neat! I think having the ability to charge outside of your apartment/work would be a huge help for people interested. I still think public transportation, bike paths, and walking paths done right is better but cars that polute less is a good step towards the right direction.
It's personal preference but I still think hybrids and plugin hybrids are better for most people, at least until electric cars improve.
I think there was a Renault that worked like this. I think the main issue is that you need a decently sized battery that can supply enough power or else the ICE needs to start every time you hit the gas pedal like was the case with the older Prius models and then you might as well connect it to the wheels and you can have a smaller electric motor.
But batteries keep improving and you can pull more power per kWh now. Maybe with solid state batteries this power train could become the more affordable option.
Hybrid cars were a topic in germany a few years ago. Laws provided funding for them too (grouped as EVs), despite their huge weight and low efficiency. I think it was solved since then?
Not really. The cities across the world are introducing public chargers in lamp posts and at the kerb. While it is kind of an issue today, it won't be tomorrow.
Hopefully it won't be, but charging an electric car is still not a standard thing for apartment buildings to offer tenants. So, for the moment, that's a major reason for renters to not take the plunge.
My apartment block in London has underground parking with allocated chargers. There are multiple lamp post chargers over here and other types of chargers. So, for the moment it's already fine.
Unless you take road trips often having a place to charge is literally any random Outlet. You don't need a fancy dedicated fast charger if you drive less than 100 miles in a day. Think about how many hours your car is just sitting at home, it has that many hours to charge it doesn't matter if it charges in 1 and 1/2 hours or 9 hours as long as it gets charged
So even as a renter as long as you have any kind of outdoor outlet or garage you've got somewhere to charge
I'm not who you replied to, but you are assuming a lot of the living situations for millions and millions of people. I live in a building built in the 40s and only have street parking. I do have a pretty damn good public transit system at my disposal, though. That's within reach for my short travel needs today.
I have an EV and charge at home. I love it. That said, I've lived in tons of rentals in college and immediately after. Not one of them would've had a practical option to charge, even on a regular outlet.
When I rented I only had street parking. In that situation an electric car is just another thing to manage. If you've got a garage to park in, sure, even with a basic 220V outlet.
A 2 year old Polestar 2 with 12,000 miles just cost my buddy slightly less than $25k. You can't even get an Accord with that age and mileage that cheap these days! Hertz dumped a bunch of them on the market recently, they were too much fun to be a profitable rental so they're absurdly cheap right now
I myself recently went from a '19 car with 220k km to a '05 one with 460k km because I realized my car's getting driven so much recently, the depreciation is killing its' value. For context, in 2022 when I acquired the '19 car, it had 140k on it.
I'll have to do some wheel bearings, brake pads, belts and pulleys, etc, on the old beater, but all that is way cheaper than the depreciation on a newer car.
To be clear, I don't advocate most people do this, I already knew beforehand what the engine and transmission are capable of. And if need be, I'll even do engine repairs or get the transmission refurbished. The ONLY thing I'm afraid of is bodywork because I can't paint for shit lol
It's not all Kazakhstan either. I'm in Estonia and half of those "200k km" German cars that get imported here have had their odometer rewinded.
Oh, the charging station. Charging port I think would mean the port it plugs into on your car. Yeah, I guess that could be an issue, but it's not really something that needs to be considered by a consumer. The fact that you're much less likely to have mechanical issues I think more than makes up for the rare case of vandalism, which can happen to any piece of the infrastructure, for gas and electric.
It's an extremely unlikely situation, and the same thing can happen with an ICE. An ICE is, in fact, much more likely to experience mechanical failure. For either the solution is the same: you have to get towed.
Luckily if it's just needing a charge there are other options than a fast charge station. You can go to an RV park and get a faster than a regular outlet charge, or go somewhere with a regular power outlet and ask if you can use it. Either of those could require spending the night, depending on how much you need, but it is very unlikely to be required and they are possible.
Regarding battery degradation - I've owned my EV for 4.5 years now, and its battery is still at 93% of its original capacity. That equates to maybe 10 miles of range lost, from an original range of around 230 miles. At that rate, it'll still be giving usable range in 10, 15 years from now. It's even warrantied to keep over 75% of its original capacity for 8 years / 100,000 miles - if it fails to achieve this (likely due to some defect), it's replaced for free.
And when it does eventually need replacing, it can be recycled into something like a home storage battery - where the power demand is not as high, but still more than enough to power everything in your home for days. Meanwhile, the car can be upgraded to a brand new battery, which will likely last even longer.
Edit: In fact, I tell a lie - I did have to replace a battery on my EV recently. The 12v lead-acid battery, that ICE cars also rely on.
Well, mine has gone through 1 set of rear axle bearings,one stupid oem heater bypass pipe assembly thst i swapped out for a stainless steel replacement, and two propeller shafts
I can see it making sense. If you're blind and you hear the sound of a waterfall approaching you, you're not going to immediately think "that's a car."
Someone has to build quite a few more power stations though.
Assuming you're talking about swapping a large fraction of the car fleet to EV, not just a few here and there.
That's a substantial increase in total electricity demand. Enough to radically impact the load on the grid.
And if you end up burning natual gas / coal to meet the marginal increase in demand - as would seem fairly likely - then much of the thermal conversion losses you're saving in the higehr efficieny motor just get shifted to the furnace in the power station and transmission/distribution system; so that can erode some of the efficiency benefits.
I guess you could require for every new EV that they also install roftop solar PV and basically buy a spare battery of near same capacity as the car. that might push the up front and periodic replacement cost a bit though - quite nice for the running costs i guess.
Another good alternative is to try to convince people to get together and share their electric motors in things callled trains and do as many trips in those as possible - that's not too popular with most people unless the road congestion is really bad. Something to do with sharing being communism i think,
And if you end up burning natual gas / coal to meet the marginal increase in demand - as would seem fairly likely - then much of the thermal conversion losses you're saving in the higehr efficieny motor just get shifted to the furnace in the power station and transmission/distribution system; so that can erode some of the efficiency benefits.
liquid fuels still have to get from the ground -> refinery -> distribution -> gas station -> vehicle so there is transmission cost and loss there
"we can't immediately solve all of the problems so let's not do it" is a pretty bad take. Incremental progress is better than waiting for perfect which basically means never doing it.
Another good alternative is to try to convince people to get together and share their electric motors in things callled trains and do as many trips in those as possible - that's not too popular with most people unless the road congestion is really bad. Something to do with sharing being communism i think,
I 100% agree everywhere it's practical. Still, people are going to have to get to train stations somehow. Multi-modal transit could somewhat cover that, but some people would still practically have to drive. Convincing those people to only drive to the nearest station and not all the way to their destination is another challenge to solve.
Real answer: power density. Pound for pound, gas still contains more energy than our best batteries. The weight of energy storage is still a massive deal for anything that cannot be tethered to a grid or be in close practical proximity for frequent recharging, from rockets, planes and cars (sometimes) to chainsaws and lawnmowers (sometimes).
A pound of dead battery doesn't help me when I'm camping 10km from the nearest access to the power grid. (There are actually powerlines not even a kilometre from my favourite campsite, but those are going to be measured in kV, and so aren't really useful to me.)
Now, if I had enough solar panels in a mobile setup, probably folding out of a trailer, I could make it work, but solar panels are expensive.
Sure, but even then there are plenty of cases where a solar panel doesn't make much sense either. If you're cutting down a tree in the woods, would you rather grab your gas-powered chainsaw out of your truck and cut down the tree, or grab your solar-powered chainsaw out of your truck, spend minutes setting up solar panels to pick up the small amount of sunlight which makes it to the forest floor, and then cut down the tree?
The point is there will always be a market for ICEs until there are batteries with competitive energy density to gasoline. You don't see solar- or battery-powered trains or construction/mining equipment because these things need huge amounts of energy to work, energy which can be easily stored in a fairly small fuel tank (which can be quickly topped off when necessary).
Absolutely, just like there's some things a horse can do that a car just can't.
I don't plan on buying a horse or needing to do those things, and I don't think the vast majority do either.
The end result is that there will still be ICEs in niche applications, but those who know how to operate them and the supply chains that currently make them cheap and dominant will slowly die off.
A dead battery is far worse than an empty jerry can, atleast the jerry can is light. Hell there are even some real nice collapsible ones and thats not even accounting for fuel bladders. Electric is useful but it is also rather rigid as well.
Electric car batteries have 270 Wh/kg (converts to 0.97 MJ/kg)
Gasoline has 46 MJ/kg
So the math here says electric gives you (0.97 * 77%) 0.75 MJ/kg output and gas gives you (46 * 30%) 13.8 MJ/kg output. Plus, as someone else said, spent gasoline no longer weighs you down.
I like the idea of electric, and I want to see it replace gas as soon as possible, but fair is fair.
And let's not forget that fueling your car requires a tank, a decently sized pump and 2 minutes of your time. A quick charge will hopefully charge your battery to 80% in 30 minutes, while giving you less km and running 300kW of power through hefty cables and big transformers, consuming the amount of energy that a family house consumes in a few days.
(And yes, battery manufacturing and disposal consume enormous amount of resources)
Electric and gas have different situations in which they shine. Gas/diesel engines are just a bunch of steel and some control chips, optimized in more thana century of technological development if we couls develop carbon neutral fuel, electric cars would not be needed. Unfortunately, it woulf be difficult to do at scale of current fuel consumption. More (electric, battery-less) public transport, less road goods transportation, more nuclear, electric for vehicles that move 100% of the time (delivery and logistic vehicles) and carbon-free fuel for other kinds of vehicles (personal transportation) is a good balance, in my personal, ignorant, armchair opinion.
The argument that I've heard is that electric cars aren't actually cleaner because of the pollution caused by mining the minerals required for the batteries.
I'm sorry but I'm too lazy to dig up links to back up my claim. But you are correct in that electric vehicles pollute far more being produced than combustion engine cars, however the electric vehicles gain that back over it's lifetime if your charge from mostly non-fossil sources. The figures I have read says that over the lifetime of a car, electrics output 70% less CO2 than combustion cars, and that includes the production of each of the cars.
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I'm sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn't matter.
Plus the technology to battery swap is well in use for electric vehicles (see Nio, who have thousands of battery swap stations in China and some in Europe too). 3 mins and you have a full battery.
It matters to people who drive more during the day than their range allows. They don't want to wait 20 minutes for the car to charge every time they venture 300km out and back /s
Quick Google says a great majority of Americans take road trips. Even though it's a tiny fraction of their driving, it's still a deciding factor for many when choosing a car. Not all people have the luxury of affording a second car just for road trips.
Public transportation would be good, but there's less flexibility to it. For example, just yesterday, on a return from a roadtrip, I got stomach sick and had to request frequent stops. That wouldn't fly on a train.
I'd love it if we had affordable and flexible public transport for getting all across the country, though.
Yeah, but road trips can be expensive. Suppose you want to go from Harrisburg PA to Rockford IL with 2 adults and 1 teenager from November 15 to 22.
By car that's about 1500 miles. An average car gets 21 mpg, so that's about 71 gallons. Gas is around $3.5 per gallon, so the trip costs about $250 in gas. You'll need a hotel. I picked a random one in Ohio. $110 for the way up, $185 for the way back. I guess that's a Thanksgiving price hike. $545 total.
By train, let's say Amtrak because that came up first. $438 up, and that includes boarding a train at midnight and sleeping on the train, and then riding a bus from Chicago to Rockford for 2 hours. $483 back down, and this time when you sleep on the train you have to wake up by 5 AM to get off. Also this is coach class, and those seats aren't great for sleeping. At least you don't need a hotel. $921 total.
By plane, it's $650 round trip, simple as, but you have to leave at 6 AM on the way up and 5 AM on the way back. It can cost $200 more to get a more convenient time, but let's assume you're going for economy alone. $650 total.
That's not accounting for food prices along the way. That could bring the car ride up to the same price as the plane if you don't pack food, but if you're spending extra on convenience there, you're probably willing to spend extra for convenience on the plane too.
So it's probably safe to say that, for this group, the car saves about $100 per year, but helping to protect the environment is worth that price. On the other hand, there's something to be said for the flexibility and ease of planning on a car. For a bigger family, cars would be a way better option, and for a family without kids or a lone traveler, planes are the way better option. Trains are right out.
I'd also add time to the comparison. Time isn't free, and if you spend 2 solid days driving, you might reconsider flying and renting a car at the destination even if it's more expensive. If you use an ev and have to take a few stops extra that might tip the scale.
Unless you're taking road trips literally every other week you could just rent a gas vehicle when it's time for a road trip. Rather than make the decision of the car you're going to drive every single day based on something you only do maybe once a year.
It's why I don't own a pickup truck, I actually do haul cars, help people move and all that shit that people say is why they need a pickup truck but I just go to fucking U-Haul and rent either the Sprinter van or the pickup truck for 30 bucks plus mileage when I need one. And I do actually keep track of my financial records with a double Ledger Finance app I just went and looked and I'm still nowhere near the cost of a used pickup truck from all of that renting
The people providing the charging infrastructure here haven't figured out this important point yet. Gas stations are a terrible place to put chargers, no one wants to stop at a gas station for fifteen minutes to an hour at a time. Charging stations need to be in places people will be stopping anyway, or at the very least places that provide something to do while waiting. Restaurants, shopping centres, tourist traps, whatever.
Here it's exacerbated by the fact that the fastest chargers we have only deliver about 60kW. Not even close to the 200+ some EVs need to get the fast charging times they advertise. But that 60kW would be perfectly fine if I could spend the time in a restaurant instead of standing around at a gas bar in the middle of nowhere.
Hell, even cheap (or free) "level 2" chargers outside restaurants and shopping malls would be a huge help.
As it should be, and I agree that those crazy fast 200+ kW chargers are rarely necessary.
It's kind of a weird reaction to consumer hesitation and people complaining that they don't want to wait for charge times as compared to the time it takes to fill a tank. Making charging as fast as possible to address the complaint (while still being one or two orders of magnitude slower at best), because that's easier than getting people to change their driving habits, or making them realise that they're always going to start the day with a full charge at home.
Even if all you have is relatively paltry north american 110V at home you need to drive way more than average per day for that not to keep up.
I’m so glad here in Germany they do that more often now. We have a quite a few large charging parks next to restaurants and bakeries. I just made a 9 hour trip to Denmark and it was a pretty nice experience overall. Only downside is you have to plan ahead if you want this convenience because the majority is still spots with 1-2 occupied chargers at some ugly, smelly Autobahn rest area.
Although own an electric car, I believe range is still an issue. I was specifically addressing fuel density and charging time. EVs have their issues, but I believe they will be solved over time even though they are unlikely to beat an ICE in fuel density or charge rate for a long time. But I don't think those things are actually important, because the problem is solved in a different way.
Because it's currently easier to find a gas station than a charger that will do that performance. Now I'm willing to wait 8 hrs for 10%, but others certainly aren't.
I don't have enough charge for my trip. I'm also thirsty.
I go to a grocery store with a fast charger.
I buy a drink.
I have enough charge.
If it's a long trip where I need more charge, I choose a car snack, and I'll have enough.
If I'm on an actual long car trip and I want to charge all the way from the warning light to 100%, I will need to eat a meal anyway. I just find a McDonald's/cafe,/restaurant/whatever with a fast charger, and it'll be full before I'm done.
But finding a store/eating place with a fast charger is still waaaay less convenient than just finding a place where I can get diesel in seconds, and find a different place to get drinks/food/snacks.
yes, they are. they make difference between actually usable technology and engineer's dream.
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
i doubt we even have enough rare metals for 8 or 16 billion batteries. most of them are being mined in politically unstable or to western civilization unfriendly countries, with terrible effect on the environment.
efficiency matters, it is not a question of how good single battery is.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I’m sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn’t matter.
oh good. YOU have it solved, so the rest of the world does not matter, i assume...? fuck all these people, right?
Hey mate I'm just here for some friendly discussion, I'm not here to argue until I'm blue in the face.
There is a difference between your above points and the original claim.
Fuel density doesn't matter, what matters is how far you can drive on a charge.
Charge time doesn't matter if you can swap a battery in 3 minutes instead of waiting to charge.
For your new point of rare earth materials, this isn't related to the original energy density or charge time points, but high density batteries that don't use rare earth metals already exist, the problem is cost. That will change over time.
Also you're ignoring that fossil fuels are also dug out of the ground.
Yes, for people who can't charge at home. I'd love to swap to electric, but 1 hour trip to go charge the car at the nearest charging station is not realistic - especially since I'd need to do it twice as often as 10min trip to refuel.
Also there's the EV prices, starting at 2-3 times more than my current whip lol
My point is that we should be focused on the outcomes we want. It isn't really important that fossil fuels are a lot more energy dense if the electric cars can travel twice as far. They can't, but I'd be willing to bet we will get to that point with fossil fuels still being more energy dense.
But also as I mentioned in the comment you relied to, Nio have a vast network of battery swap stations where you can get a full charge in a couple of minutes, the same as filling up at a gas station.
The price of EVs are a problem, and not the only problem, but my point was that the specific things mentioned don't stop us having better EVs than ICEs, because we will get the same outcome in a different way.
I absolutely agree that we should work on improving EVs, charging network and whatever technologies makes it better and more suitable for more people. But every person in need of a car has unique hard requirements for the car that can't be ignored as "inconvenience" - and many of those people have to drive with fossil fuels still.
Also, battery swap stations being available in X location doesn't matter to people living in Y location, nor should people in Y location buy EV in hopes that it will be better in Z years
I agree completely. I am not trying to argue that everyone can or should go out and buy an EV.
I was specifically addressing the points that seemed to be claiming EVs are not the right direction for cars or engines to be advancing towarda, by pointing out that the barriers aren't blocking all paths.
It's exactly this. Convenience. We've become accustomed to how convenient it is and don't want to be put out.
On the other hand, it's super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank. So if you drive less than 60 miles a day, and have acess to another car for long trips, an electric is even more convenient.
It's one of those things where people feel like they're going to take a road trip every weekend, but most people are just using their car to commute to and from work and maybe take one or two longer trips per year. The time saved by not having to stop at a gas station throughout the the year is less than the additional time taken at a fast charging station for the rare road trip.
Unfortunately, people tend to buy vehicles to best accomplish 1% of their driving. I live in the suburbs and almost every house has a giant pickup parked in front. Not because people are in the construction business and need to haul a lot of stuff, but because once a year they might go to Home Depot and it feels good to put their two bags of mulch in the back.
Part of the problem is not having the money or space for an extra vehicle.
I drive an SUV, I don't particularly like driving an SUV, I get a lot of use out of having a larger vehicle, I'm an avid DIYer who makes frequent trips to the hardware store to pick up lumber and such, I have a lot of outdoor hobbies and usually end up being the one who drives so I'm carrying gear for several people, I don't exactly go off roading, but those hobbies sometimes take me on some poorly maintained, deeply rutted, muddy roads and 4wd has gotten me out of some jams, I occasionally drive onto the beach to go fishing, usually find myself towing a small trailer a couple times a year, and I'm an essential employee that lives in an area that gets snow with a weird schedule that usually has me commuting before the snow plows have gotten through everywhere.
But even though I probably get more actual use out of an SUV than most people, most often I'm still only driving about 20 miles or less a day, on paved roads, in weather that doesn't require anything more than working headlights, wipers, and tires that aren't totally bald.
If I had the budget and parking space I'd probably have the cheapest base model EV I could find for most of my commuting and small errands and save the SUV for my days off and when it snows. That's not the case though.
I am so ready to hop on the PHEV or even full electric bandwagon.
I do have 2 major hurdles though.
First is there aren't a lot of vehicles out there, at an affordable price point for me that quite fit my needs. I've pretty much dialed in that a midsized SUV or small pickup truck is just right for me. There's some exciting options coming down the pipeline, but none that are out there have quite hit the sweet spot for me yet. (I am champing at the bit for Ford to release a PHEV AWD maverick with a midgate to make up for that short bed. That's basically my ideal vehicle, I'd also be stoked for Toyota to do a plug in 4runner, my current car is a 4runner and I like it a lot, if either of those happen before I'm ready for my next car theres a good chance that's what I'm getting)
Second is charging, I live in a townhome with no garage or driveway, so if I want to charge at home I'm pretty much stuck running about a 30ft extension cord across my front lawn and sidewalk. That's less than ideal, and my HOA hasn't exactly been friendly to others in my neighborhood who have gone electric who have done that. I can probably work around that though, the way my schedule works, unless I go in for overtime I usually don't work more than 3 days in a row, so if battery-only range gets a little better for PHEVs (which hopefully they will by the time I'm able to budget for a new car in a few years) I can probably do most of my commuting on one charge and find an hour or two on my days off to go somewhere with a fast charger.
In the meantime, I just try to get my wife to do as much of the driving as possible when we're both off since she has a prius, our schedules don't always align, but when they do I only drive if we need my bigger car for something.
It's a long way off, but we also fantasize about the possibilities of self-driving cars someday when all of the problems are worked out. Since we have different schedules (she works a regular 9-5, I work 3pm-3am on a 2-2-3 schedule,) we could have one self driving car for most of our commuting and errands, it could take her to work, come home and take me to work, pick her up and take her home, and pick me up at the end of my shift, and go charge itself in-between.
If they use a camper or heavy trailer even four times per year, fine whatever keep your truck. The other millions of Americans should've just rented a vehicle when they needed it, and it would've been far cheaper and more convenient to have their daily driver as a regular sized sedan.
You don't even need the clothes dryer circuit, the vast majority of people don't drive enough in a day to need anything more than a standard 15a outlet
it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank
But, to make that possible, you basically have to have a "gas station" at home. If you own your own house you can modify it to install a charging spot. If you rent, you might not have that option.
All EVs come with Level 1 chargers that plug in to your standard house outlet.
Sure, but if you use those it takes a very long time to charge. Like, from empty it can take 40+ hours to charge a battery EV from empty to 80%. If you're using your car to commute and your commute is anywhere near the max range of your car, that isn't a viable option.
I wonder if looking at the system as a whole for both systems would reveal a different difference. (infra needed to transport and fill those gas station tanks vs infra needed for level 3 charging stations)
On the one hand the Nokia 3310's battery lasts a week. On the other hand the iPhone 15....
Just plug your car in when you're not using it like you'd charge your phone overnight. It's only a problem if you can't charge at home (due to on street parking and no charging facilities on that street) and you can't charge somewhere you usually take your car (eg a workplace).
If i ride to vacation to a country with no charging infrastucture, if I want to ride to the mountains where it is subzero and my range drops dramatically, if I go to a place where it's 38 deree celsius and I need AC my range is pretty much fucked up... (not to mention that close to remote places like cool beaches there is no charging station)
If I want to have a road trip... i suddenly becomes a planning issue
There are still so many things that are complicated by having a EV, and I don't need the extra complications
And flood loads of valleys to create massive hydro power stations?
Norway's low density gives it plentry of cheap renewable electricity (per person).
In my country we have loads of people living in valleys, so we'd probably not get away with building that much hydro generation capacity.
Although there's a whole area called the "lake district" that is literally asking for it.
Norway is incredibly sparsely populated and has an adoption rate of 80%+. We also have stupid cold winters, loads of fucking mountains and require AC in summer.
I've driven through Europe twice with no more than 2 minutes of planning in an app.
Your comment makes me think you have no experience with EV's at all and are spreding false claims.
There are literally two scenarios where an EV is not better than ICE (if purchased new today).
One is for people frequently traveling far beyond the cars range and the other is for people without access to AC charging at all.
And no, I'm not a EV lover/gasoline hater. I ride a motorcycle powered by dinosaur juice too. I just like having 400+ BHP and 700 Nm of torque in a car priced like a Toyota Avensis, and a full tank every single time I leave my driveway with said full tank costing me <$5.
You should want that too unless you belong to one of the two exeption groups above.
My issue with EVs isn't the EV itself, it's that they're all smart cars. Granted, most new ICE cars are being overladen with bull shit too so I think I'm just stuck with cars from the 2010s.
Both tbh. I also just don't like the usability and looks of everything being a screen. I really hate digital dashboards. The newer cars feel like they were designed to be disposable like a smart phone, where long term use isn't a consideration.
I have seen some services that convert ICE cars to EV, so I may just do that when my engine needs replaced
The reason I single out the 2010s is because that's when I could get a touch screen with car play, but still have HVAC controls as a button and no digital dashboards.
If you don't drive for work--and I mean get paid to drive hundreds of miles every day, not just a long commute--or take a road trip every month, and have a place to charge at night (most people do, at least in North America), then an EV is just better.
Otherwise, a plug-in hybrid or a "gasoline boosted EV" like a Volt is sufficient. ICE cars for regular people shouldn't have even existed once the Volt proof of concept was proven!
While my sentence could be worded more clearly, that's a pretty bad reading of what I said.
My car is valued by KBB at ~6k in it's current state.
That current state includes a battery that was replaced under warranty 6 months ago, and is thus basically a brand-new battery, 9 years left on its warranty and everything.
So if something goes wrong with the battery and it isn't directly your fault: it gets replaced for free. The only 6k being spent is the original 6k on the car as a whole
We have a food delivery company in town, and they use electric cars. I got to talk to the owners a few years back, and they were paying around that price. So I suspect it's getting close to fitting your needs. How far do you drive each day, on average?
It all depends on where you live, of course, and how far you are willing to look for that car. And you might want to poke around on Edmunds.com, if only to satisfy your curiosity. Like others have said, and I would agree, it's getting close to your criteria - 90+ miles, $6K for a used. I suspect that there will be a whole lot more used EVs on the market over the next 5 years. All the 'cool kids' want to buy the latest, bleeding edge tech. And watching and waiting to get that tech seems like a prudent and viable option. The other thing the guy with the delivery biz said was that he was getting his cars from CA, because he could find them used, cheap, relatively good condition. Anyway, best to ya. I'm out.
The one thing stopping me is seeing how they fare long term with the overwhelming amount of electronics added to the cars.
Hopefully car manufacturers goes a different direction as electronic and appliances company went. Everyone I know that are into EVs went through 2 or 3 different one in the time I've owned my ICE car (~10 years). Most because of their lease ending and wanting the absolute newest but others due to battery issues making the car a total loss due to replacement cost.
I’m not optimistic about this. The finance “geniuses” have seen how much money software and electronics companies are making from subscription models and trying to put them into even combustion powered cars. I think it’s BMW that’s already started trying to put heated seats on a subscription model. The equipment’s already in the car but it’s disabled unless you pay them a monthly fee.
I'm hoping that as EVs become more common, conversion kits become a thing. Both straight-electric and PHEV; I would love to pull the oversized engine from my truck (it's a 4.0 in a Ranger, wtf, it doesn't need that kind of power) and replace it with a diesel-electric motor-battery-generator combo. With a half decent battery, I would be running on electric 95% of the time; for the other 5% (which is camping on rough trails, no I'm not renting a truck for it), there'd be the diesel generator backup
From personal experience, you also need a garage to keep an electric car in if you're in an extreme cold climate, those batteries can fail if in the deep cold for long enough and those car companies do NOT have the replacement parts in stock to fix it quickly.
I live in an area with the exact opposite issue (my battery MELTED) so I'm probably wrong, but isn't that what the battery blankets they try to sell you on when you buy an EV is for?
I live in Canada and own a Bolt. Its a pretty unremarkable EV from a tech standpoint. It keeps the batteries at the right temp by heating and cooling them. It really doesnt require any extra effort or special equipment.
Mr. Monkey subjectively your finely tuned v8 sounds like a 400lb basement dwelling gorilla someone has fed laxatives and recorded from the bottom of a well used coachella porta potty.
I dunno, I’m “team electric is objectively better in every way” but I gotta agree, a fancy tuned racecar engine sounds like angry beast and that’s pretty sexy.
The jolt of max acceleration of an electric motor in complete silence is also extremely sexy, though.
Think of the nicest sound you know. A well-tuned instrument performing a delicate melody, a passionate singer performing their heart out, a cacophony of songbirds. That's what my good noises sound like when done right.
Obviously nobody wants to hear a fart can Honda Civic at 4am, but a fantastically engineered Italian V10 has its own melody that can't really be replicated otherwise. These examples will be missed, and the survivors will be sought after like a vintage violin.
It's incredible how certain people are conditioned to think the sound of a gas motor and shifting because your puny motor is out of optimal torque and rpm range are manly.
Yeh, but unless I uproot my life and move to a different country, I'm stuck doing it, so I can either bitch and moan about how much I hate it, or have the best time I can doing it 🤷🏾♂️
For sure, I used to drive stick when I drove, but I also argued for town planning that would make driving optional. Personal choices to deal with the reality you're given, public policy activism for the reality you want.
I don't see how making noise is good. I live in a street that doesn't get much traffic, but even one car is loud enough to be bothering.
I don't want to pause my music and conversations just because someone decided that vroom vroom sounds were more important than me hearing literally anything else.
Even more that noise pollution is definitely a thing, and affect both mental health and physical one.
Vehicles making noise actually is good, for pedestrians' sake, but yeah ICE vehicles make far more than they need to. Some (? many? I'm not sure how standard it is) electric vehicles make a sort of beeping sound for that reason.
If you're in an area where pedestrians may be crossing the road, traffic should be slow enough to use permeable brick pavers, which increase road noise, help with rainwater drainage, and add a little green to the road if find right.
I dunno, maybe take their conservative advice and violently overthrow your government?
Real talk, you'll have a hell of a time arguing for the upgrades, but even so, I only suggest switching to bricks when the road needs to be resurfaced anyway. The road works well enough as-is, this is just an improvement.
The majority of sound for cars are not the motor but the wheels compressing air, after I think 50kph, the sound of an ev or a ic is basically the same.
Well, in a neighborhood, cars won't always be driving 50 km/h. And the engine will be especially loud, when they need to accelerate after a turn or whatever.
Either way, I do hear the difference when an electric car goes by.
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