I cannot believe they had Boimler and Mariner move like physical cartoon characters and pulled it off that well, holy shit. We absolutely lost it when Boimler was tangled in the control panel
And him doing his walk away from Una the second time. And so many of Tawnie’s mannerisms like in the shuttle where she kinda strikes a pose before getting caught. And Quaid’s mannerisms and screaming with Spock in the lab.
Those two really worked to make realistic versions of the silliness they have in LDS and it was magnificent. I caught so much more on second watch.
Let's be honest: at this point, they could make the greatest Star Trek film of all time, and it would only be 1/47 as entertaining as watching the executives at Paramount Pictures stepping on infinite rakes in infinite combinations as they try to make the damn thing.
The adult gorn was easily my favourite part of the episode!
There’s clearly a horror strain in the Gorn arc, with pretty strong echos/homages of Alien … and I am all here for it. With the scene of Batel warding off the young Gorn, I knew straight away she’d been impregnated because of the clear Alien reference.
I really liked the subtle hints. They arent just savage creatures. They have advanced technology. Communicate in ways humans cant understand at all. Use tech in ways most humans cant handle as well. Etc etc.
Trek would do good to have more species that arent humanoid. It makes for a much more interesting show.
Agree. One of my favorite species was the Xindi in enterprise. But even they fell victim to the trope of the universal translator. A species like the Gorn where normal linguistics just won’t work would be a nice touch (Ala the movie arrival or something)
It took me a lot longer than I’d like to admit for me to figure out that this was a reference to SNW, and not someone trying to push a far-right conspiracy theory. I think I need to take a break from the internet for a while.
Sept. 2024. You’re right. Just a bit less than a year.
The scariest part, though, is that sanctuary cities almost seem like a better alternative than our current approach to the housing crisis of “lol fucking die” :/
Yeah, and also according to Deep Space 9 lore, the massacre in skid row the sanctuary city of LA was publicized in the media and led to an outpouring of public support for policy reform that improved the conditions for the underprivileged.
In this timeline, that seems incredibly optimistic to the point of being impossible.
Public support I can buy. Housing first, Medicare for all, cannabis legalization all poll incredibly well. The government doing it, regardless of who’s in power? That’s fantasy. Lol. I’d be more likely to believe we got transporters, or the Elon musk has a replicator and the rest of us aren’t allowed to use it. Lol.
This is probably my favorite story about the filming of TNG. He wanted to take it very seriously, his cast mates were all goofing around too much, and the end result landed somewhere in the middle, which I think served the show well in the end. Patrick Stewart elevated the show, and it might not have been so successful otherwise.
Tuvix is literally just a Trolley Problem scenario with a fancy costume. No more, no less. And the whole point of the trolley problem is that there isn’t any single “correct” answer.
There is an out of control trolley. You can’t stop it. On the trolley’s current track, there are two people. If you do nothing, they will die when the trolley hits them. But you’re at a track switch, and can divert the trolley to an alternate track. On that second track, there is one person who will die if the trolley hits them. Do you pull the lever? If you pull the lever, are you murdering the one? If you don’t pull the lever, are you complicit in the deaths of the two?
In this case, the trolley is the transporter accident; Janeway has the ability to pull the lever and reverse the accident. If she chooses not to, she is essentially refusing to pull the lever, thereby condemning the two people on the first track to die. But if she reverses the accident, she is pulling the lever and killing the one.
Janeway decided the answer to “should you pull the lever” was “yes”. She pulled the lever, saved the two, and killed the one. Sure, you could argue that pulling the lever is murdering the one. But if you sit by and do nothing, aren’t you willfully (maybe even maliciously) negligent? After all, you have the opportunity to save the lives of two, while minimizing damage to only one person.
Philosophers will try to change the trolley problem to fit different scenarios. What if it’s a bunch of convicted felons on the first track, and an innocent child on the second track? What if it’s a bunch of your friends and family on the first track, and your worst enemy on the second? What if, what if, what if… But the base question is always the same; Do you choose to do nothing and let many die, or actively kill the one? What is the tipping point where your decision changes?
This is not a trolley problem in that there is sequence involved:
1: Tuvok and Neelix alive before transport
2: Tuvok and Neelix dead and a new rational being in their place. This being had a moral blank slate and are thus blameless for the circumstances of creation.
3: Janeway decides that the speech she gave to the Vidiians was just hot air and that she will kill Tuvix to get the original two back. (Non lethal ways were explored, but quickly abandoned)
4: The blameless being makes an articulate case for their life, and even addresses the “needs of the many” argument by stating the truth: the other two are gone and the new being is there. (Raw, unalloyed utilitarianism is problematic at best, just ask the people of Omelas Majalis)
5: The doctor straight up says that the procedure is unethical and refuses to do it.
6: Janeway does it anyway.
Calling it a trolley problem is reductive and inaccurate.
The doctor has his ethical subroutines preventing him from doing harm.
That is fine in a doctor/patient relationship, but the captain has a captain/crew relationship, she would cause a lot of harm and loose two good crew members if she had let it be.
The two crew members that were lost at the same time Tuvix appeared? The dead (not alive) ones? And again, square this with the speech she gave the Vidiians.
If you’re going to refute, then address the whole thing.
I understand but disagree with that perspective. To me they were not alive at the time. However, you still haven’t accounted for the rest. Reconcile the Majalis problem and Janeway’s own speech to the Vidiians.
even addresses the “needs of the many” argument by stating the truth: the other two are gone and the new being is there.
articulate case for their life, and even addresses the “needs of the many” argument by stating the truth: the other two are gone and the new being is there
That only addresses the needs of Tuvok and Neelix. What about the rest of the crew whose chances of survival and reaching home are materially hindered by the effective loss of a crew member. Presumably Tuvix isn’t going to work 8 hours in the galley then straight away 8 hours on tactical. What if there’s an emergency that needs both skillets at the same time? What if Tuvix is killed in six months time on an away mission?
It’s true that Tuvok and Neelix were gone, but the option now existed to have them both back. So the fact that they were gone is reductive and inaccurate. Again ultimately Janeway has around 150 lives to think of, not just three.
The doctor straight up says that the procedure is unethical and refuses to do it.
Because he’s a doctor. I doubt he’d be able to order someone into a jefferies tube to fix an ODN conduit in an active warp plasma shaft. Yet that’s literally part of the bridge officers test. youtu.be/rC6rGoyEe2s?si=ho_FOBjSaUdTRurX
Janeway’s own log started that Tuvix was better than the sun of the parts; a better cook and tactical officer. The point of a team is that no one person is a point of failure. Factoring in a hypothetical future scenario is spurious.
An extrajudicial execution (to be charitable) for no crime is beyond most ethical frameworks.
And not one person has even tried to reconcile the speech to the Vidiians.
The point of a team is that no one person is a point of failure.
Exactly. Tuvix is a potential single point of failure. You’re doubling your risk. Eggs and baskets.
Factoring in a hypothetical future scenario is spurious.
Why? It goes hand in hand with your point about points of failure. It’s something that would have had to be considered. Voyager wasn’t snug and safe in the alpha quadrant where they could just go to a starbase and get more crew members if they lost any.
And not one person has even tried to reconcile the speech to the Vidiians.
It’s right there in the speech I will do whatever is necessary to protect my people
At the end of the day the murder of Tuvix pales into insignificance compared to her out and out genocide of the Borg. All to protect her people and get them home.
I don’t personally think the murder of Tuvix was justifiable, but it’s definitely not an open and shut case. Janeway had to consider 150 people and their chances of surviving and getting home in one piece she also had to consider Tuvok and Neelix.
Were we watching the same speech? The one where she condemns them, but states that she doesn’t have the freedom to kill someone that another might live (in this scenario, killing an alien for the sake of a crewman) and ultimately decides to turn them loose with a promise of reprisal if encountered again?
the whole point of the trolley problem is that there isn’t any single “correct” answer.
Yeah, this exactly. However, the nature of fandoms and especially online fan communities means that rather considering the question bilaterally, people will argue for decades and factions will form 🤷
Tuvix adds another element though. Tuvok and Neelix were already dead and Tuvix was alive. I think that makes this different from the standard trolley problem - still a hard choice but not the same.
IMO, once Neelix and Tuvok stop existing, they are dead. They have no consciousness, they aren’t around. They’re gone. They’re ex-people. They’re not sad about the situation, because they no longer exist. There’s no brain there to process any of this. Once you are dead, you don’t have a right to live, especially not if it means the death of another.
Tuvix, on the other hand, existed. He was conscious, self aware, intelligent, alive. He was dragged, crying, begging for his life, pleading for anybody to step in and stop him from being murdered. Then he was killed to bring two people back to life.
Now I know people will say “but 2 is more than 1, so it’s fine to kill him”, but that’s never sat right with me. What was that Picard speech about arithmetic not being a good reason for discarding the rights of sentient beings?
Tbh I’m astounded the Star Trek community is massively on the “murder of an innocent is ok if it saves more people and he’s a little ugly” side
Death is a moving line, even today. There’s a reason doctors don’t declare death until there’s no way to revive a patient. Using that same logic, if there’s a way to revive Neelix / Tuvox, are they dead? It’s going to come down to how you personally define death.
This is true but hard to argue within the universe as we just don’t have the info and there are in universe contradictions about transporters. Been a while since I saw the episode but for me - ‘nonexistentance’ is close enough to ‘dead’ that Tuvix should have been allowed to live.
I found it strange the claim started with the language “a Trolley Problem” and concluded with the language “the trolley problem”.
It seems one could make any choice into “a” trolley problem. But Tuvix problem is certainly not “the trolley problem”. This is about emergence of consciousness. In the trolley problem, the characters cease to exist. Neither choice here would end, say, Tuvok’s consciousness.
Neither choice here would end, say, Tuvok’s consciousness.
Arguable, since the result is neither Tuvok nor Neelix, but a new one based on those two. They’re not active, seperate consciousness stuffed into a Tuvixian body.
And unwinding Tuvix ends Tuvix’s consciousness. Neither Tuvok or Neelix keep Tuvix as part of themselves afterwards, he’d basically die if that was to happen.
Are you claiming it is in fact equivalent to the standard “trolley problem”? (I don’t think you are, but if you are, I’ll add)
If the point is even “arguable”, I claim that is enough to distinguish it from the trolley problem, because that argument doesn’t come up there.
That was my point. I agree that the consciousness that emerged is distinct from Tuvok (or of course Neelix, but I felt like an ass last time I used the “say Tuvok” construction).
Are you claiming it is in fact equivalent to the standard “trolley problem”? (I don’t think you are, but if you are, I’ll add)
Not exactly, was more thinking along the lines of both choices involving an end to the consciousness of one or the other. Either Tuvok and Neelix are held in limbo/non-existent from that point onwards, or Tuvix is unwound.
If the point is even “arguable”, I claim that is enough to distinguish it from the trolley problem, because that argument doesn’t come up there.
But I am curious, would it not? From my understanding, at the end of the shift, you’re still sacrificing one life to save two, or two to save one, which seems like it would harken back to the fundamentals of the issue. Assuming that no cloning or replicative shenanigans takes place, either Neelix/Tuvok are retained, or Tuvix is.
That said, there was some leeway in that Janeway had no urgent time-pressure to return them back to their bodies at the time, unlike with something like Transport-split Kirk. She mentions needing her crew back, but that could easily happen at some point in the future, and that might alter the variables of the problem, since part of the trolley problem is that there isn’t any time to take a third option, nor get help from other places.
DS9 is a Bajoran station, not a Federation one. The Bajoran economy is not post-scarcity and still runs on money. Either Starfleet officers get a stipend to purchase things when posted on such assignments, or Quark simply bills Starfleet. Either way, Starfleet/the UFP likely has a reserve of latinum and other resources for trade with other nations.
Ok so next question. If the computer can magically create anything. And they are on almost all space stations (including cardassian/federation ones) what’s the point of a bar?
Gambling makes sense. Paying for food/drink when you have a replicator doesn’t.
No one said the replicator can perfectly create the most delightful and exquisite flavors and aromas associated with the real thing. Also the bar is like a real bar in a way, you’re not paying for just the food/drink but also the atmosphere.
Also also it’s a Bajoran station, so maybe Quark has to pay an energy bill even for using the drinks replicator.
Also also also Quark makes the point that he had programmed the drinks replicator to be even better than a regular one, so you’re also paying for that.
Between my wife and I we can make a lot of good staples (roasted chicken, beef and potatoes, etc.) but we’re not masters of the kitchen by any stretch.
You go to a restaurant to have someone else make the dinner and hopefully they are better than you are to make something tastier. As a side you don’t have to deal with cleaning dishes.
That and hopefully they have a good wait staff to liven up things
maybe Quark has to pay an energy bill even for using the drinks replicator.
I think this is the main part. Things cost money on DS9 because the energy used to run the replicators is a finite resource, given that they are in such a remote location.
I think Sisko's threat is to start collecting rent Quark technically always owed but that Sisko had chosen to overlook because of the benefits the bar brings to the promenade, especially in the immediate aftermath of the Cardassian withdrawal.
Having seen Avery Brooks give panels at cons, I can confidently say that all the times when Sisko got space madness or was holosuite transformed into a Bond villain or was otherwise acting like a madman… all of those performances are the real Avery Brooks, and the stolid, restrained, level-headed Sisko is the character that Avery Brooks uses his formidable acting skills to pretend to be.
It was because they’d given him the supplies he needed to restart the bar after the FCA revoked his business license. So they were threatening to take back the equipment and start charging him rent again if he continued to do arms deals on the station.
Also also also Quark makes the point that he had programmed the drinks replicator to be even better than a regular one, so you’re also paying for that.
Great point.
And to be clear, by “programmed” we mean “installed weird sketchy dark web firmware, some of which he happened to write and sell himself” and by “even better” we mean “breaks lot of Federation food safety rules in fun ways”.
Quark doesn’t pay for anything on the station. That was clarified in the series when Sisko threatened to charge him for it all. Forgot the episode though.
I don’t think that’s accurate, we saw an episode of lower decks where the group were discussing that Starfleet replicators use a similar chemical that has much shorter lived symptoms.
The exact quotes were tense asking how they were all so drunk when x thing existed and Mariner replying she had started asking real alcohol after the 2 drink.
Replicators make synthehol and alcohol, you choose which variant you want or program in your standard options. Snobs like Scotty and Jean-Luc’s brother say they can taste the difference which is why Guinan keeps “it is green” behind the bar.
They can in TNG at least. There is an episode about people being cryogenically frozen in the past, because of uncurable illnesses. They unfroze them, and one dude ordered alcohol. He even said it was the best glass he has ever had.
I think I remember them mentioning that the replicators can’t make very complex items, like a layered alcoholic drink. That and honestly a lot of people would probably still go just for the social aspect.
@aredditimmigrant@VindictiveJudge later in lower decks it's revealed that quark has "done some work" to his replicators that make them produce results you can't get in your quarters/mess hall
Latinum is chosen as the default currency, exactly because it is not replicable. In ST:Outpost there’s an episode where they find an alien tech that is able to replicate latinum, but only for a couple days before it dissolves. That is than used by ferengi pirates for obvious malicious reasons. ST:outpost is a fan production though, so not canon, but I do believe this is how it is. It is briefly mentioned in the apendices on latinum’s memory alpha page
You can buy alcohol cheap from a store in real life, along with all the ingredients to make drinks, yet people still go to bars where cocktails cost more than a meal. They’re not going just because of superior bartending skills, they’re going as part of the experience of drinking with other people. Because on DS9, your other option is basically to drink in your quarters, which is no fun.
There are more options for food on DS9, but people still go to Quark’s for the atmosphere. It’s lively and fun, which is probably hard to come by otherwise on a remote space station. I doubt people are coming to Quark’s in droves for the food though, it’s more just something you get if you’re already there.
The computer can’t create everything, that’s why gold is near worthless and latinum is eternal.
Paying for food or drink would be for recipes not programmed into your own replicator, or when you’re not at home with your own. Star fleet seems paternal about healthy stuff like synthehol.
So I understand the above items (latinum being the most important and fungible) being non-replicatable. But at the point where Starfleet is permanently on your station and has easy access to both replicators and infinite energy, why aren't the Bajorans also post-scarcity? You'd think that tech, while powerful, is a far more important thing to trade for and Starfleet has an incentive to uplift societies it isn't at war with to prevent scarcity wars and instability.
Bajor isn’t part of the Federation, so they don’t have immediate access to all Federation tech. Also, even when they join, I’m not convinced that the Federation just hands new members everything. The Prime Directive is all about not interfering in a society’s natural growth, and although achieving warp travel is the major barrier to initiating First Contact, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were additional steps along the way once a planet has joined the Federation.
You kinda have to ignore replicators for most of this to make sense. They should’ve just let replicators be either microwave ovens or 3D printers instead of being apparently able to replicate anything.
User flair is unfortunately not a thing on Lemmy, but this is as good a time as any to confirm that we have independently verified that OP is Aaron J. Waltke, writer/producer of Star Trek: Prodigy.
Prodigy is an amazing show. I hope it finds a home soon. I just recommended it to my 80 year old father. My wife and I just about died with happiness rewatching season 1 recently. All around, the best Trek in years
i’m reading a murder mystery series of books from Louise Penny called the Inspector Gamache series. Here’s a related quote:
“There are four things that lead to wisdom. You ready for them?’ Gamache held up his hand as a fist and raised a finger with each point. "I don’t know. I need help. I’m sorry. I was wrong’.”
2x08: WAR IS HELL, NOBODY IS INNOCENT, MORALITY IS GREY, FORGIVENESS IS QUESTIONABLE, AND THE FRIENDLY DOCTOR MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE DELIBERATELY KILLED A GUY IN COLD BLOOD
I saw somewhere that the actor improved that line which means he blurted it out with Riker standing right there which feels totally in line with the tone of the episode they were shooting. It's funny to me on so many levels.
Definitely watch the Ready Room episode. They talk about a lot of this. I remember another interview where Tawnie Newsom, I think, talks about how Frakes, Quaid, and her just kinda took over the set because they were all nerding out, being silly, and improv-ing a bunch because that’s what they do on LDS.
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